Summary Pieter Levels â The Indie Hackerâs Guide to AI Startups (Youtube) www.youtube.com
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n/a In indie hacking is dead. At least that's something that my guess today, Peter levels once tweeted about. Of course, it's not that, but it is different now. And just how different and why it's different that we will figure out today on the Bootstrap founder. Peter and I, chat about Ai startups dealing with platform risks and why Indie hacking isn't even hacking anymore and how to build audiences on Twitter in 20 23.
n/a A big shout out to the sponsor of today's episode, acquire dot com. More in that later. Now, here's Peter. Peter, thanks so much for being on the show. I only have 1 question here.
n/a Why is (and the hacking dead? Can you tell me more about that?
Peter Man. So I tweeted that acne was dead, but my point was more like, I think... Because it's like a long tweet (and the first message is like Is dead, and then I try explain, but nobody reads the (and. Lions things like Tiktok. You know, people only watch 10 seconds.
Peter So what I meant was, like, this (and I can start I think, like (and 16, because kind of big, maybe 20 14 with product ones), because before a lot of you would do the Vc route of doing startups, right? It everybody knows this story. So I feel like this year (and like became very became very popular and a lot of people are. And I think also now what you see what I see. You might Twitter is that big companies, big tech companies they follow me and they follow all other Hacker’s to see what Hacker’s are doing.
Peter Like, it's big it's it's become now finally on the radar of tech, you know, to a lot of people in San Francisco. So saw tweet by Lewis. He's making Ai startup up in San Francisco and he lives in some parts and sleeping parts. And he said, I mean, the sleeping part like Hostel (and San Francisco for 600 dollars per a month, full of Indie hackers trying to ship Ai startups. And I'm like, this because it's San Francisco, it is usually the place where you raise Vc and it's Hackers.
Peter So it feels like it's a mainstream turnout. Term now. And that's what I mean. So it means has become more competitive, more saturated and more difficult because you're competing not just with a lot of Is now, a lot of people are doing. It's becoming like the standard route.
Peter You're also competing with big tech companies now. And I see this if the Ai startups I do. I'm I'm competing with companies that raised 500000000 dollars, you know, like these big Ai startups. (and and they follow me ones) Twitter, and they see what I'm doing. So if I launch a feature, they ask their developers to make the same feature and maybe vice versa, of course, but, you That's what I mean.
Peter So it's dead in a way that... Like, if a remote work was called remote hacking, you know? And then Covid (and and remote work became normal. It was it would also be dead because it's not Hacker’s anymore It's normal now. So it's more like...
n/a Yeah. That is exactly the difference. Right? It used to be hacking, it used to be hacking it used to be kind of a sub culture thing. Yeah.
n/a And now it's just the way people approach entrepreneurship. So Indie hacking, it's just indie business.
Peter Like think. Right?
n/a I think
Peter so and people reply to me, like, you're in a bubble because you're like, in the in the eco bubble, It's not mentioning at all. But I do think it's startups, it's it's very present on the radar. A lot of people and a lot of people prefer. Like, (and, I have a lot of Vc funded founder friends, and they say their next startup is preferably (and and they will do it because they're (and. A lot of people are burned out from the feces.
Peter You know?
n/a Yeah. Good. That I think that's a good thing. Because I there's a lot of speculation happening there that maybe coupled with an economic recession is not the best idea. Yeah.
n/a To people to put to whole life energy
Peter into something very good point.
n/a May not.
Peter Like, the economic recession is a very good point because you wanna do it more lean. So Lean start up (and Hacker’s becomes more Because in necessity because there is no money. It's hard to get funding. Yeah. It's hard to get Series b funding, you know?
Peter Maybe...
n/a Yeah. That's right. That Series a or even seed (and. Just money has dried up in many ways and people are much more selective in what they fund. It's funny that you (and, like, Ai startups because there...
n/a There's a lot of them going on. And you recently tweeted something about your your own recently. It's just a couple hours ago. Tweeted about, like, how of you you found something that you haven't felt before with other startups ups now that you are doing Is startups. And it's kind of the lack of a emo.
Peter This is a big problem. Yeah. Set the effort word, but this a big problem. It's everybody talks about it even like other Ai founders, vc funded Ai founders, with Dm and everyday retention, which is the churn is very high and the defense, like you make something and immediately have a lot of clones because everybody working with the same stuff. Everybody is using Gp for tech stuff almost or Llama, the Facebook.
Peter But or people use stable future for image stuff, working everybody is the same, So it's not proprietary tech, like the stuff you do around in this proprietary, like the way you combine all the models and everything in your website. But everybody can figure this out. Within, I would say if you're smart within 3 months with if you're less smart, maybe 6 months through a year. So it's very difficult to make a startup Ai start now?
n/a Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a that's an issue. I I guess it's it's it's both a benefit and and the curse.
n/a Right? Yeah. The curse is everybody can do it. The benefit is everybody can do it. Is a lot of variety and you could build a lot of things.
Peter It's really good for customers. Right? If you have a lot of people making these apps and you get you get a big pressure on the price to go down, but difficult for business owners because if the price goes down, like this is pure economics, The profit margin goes to 0, and man, my profit margin for Ai is not high. Like, this is this week. I've been chart it and it's like, with the cost of Gpu, the profit margin gets really, really low very quickly.
n/a So Yeah. I was wondering about this, like I I was looking into your startups to whole list of them. And you have several right? Several going on. No med list is still around K is still there.
n/a (and then you have these 2 Ai startups that have pretty significant Mr more now. They also have They they have a lot of cost compared to the other.
Peter That's the problem. That's a big problem. And man, honestly unless the Gpu costs go down, it's a difficult business. And... And we were thinking Gpu costs would go down.
Peter But then Nvidia, set... Like, there's are kind of bottleneck. They cannot produce enough chips. It's so popular now Ai. They cannot produce enough chips and the stock of Nvidia, of course, went through the roof because of this.
Peter So people are fighting over Gpus. It's insane. It's like it's... Because you need a Gpu for... It's like a processor professor for people who don't know It's like a.
Peter Cpu, like a computer processor, but it's for graphics and somehow, it's it's like very let's not go to the, but it's very very useful, very fast for Ai stuff. You need a Gpu Ai pretty much. I rise is very slow. So... And there's not enough Gpus being built, like, Nvidia makes almost all of them.
Peter So right that makes the cost of be servers very high because it's.
n/a It's crazy to think about just how much platform dependency you stack there. Right? You have... The the processor that needs to be done and you need those for machine learning systems that also are run by somebody else, and then there's an Api that is run by a company and you build on top of that. Yeah.
n/a So you depend on all these layers.
Peter Yeah.
n/a How do you deal with this? Because I don't think No med list is that not (and and not anything.
Peter If like Normally use Api to collect data for about cities, right? So I use a lot of different stores, but it's it's like 100 robots that collect that scrape kind of information and some is paid Apis, but it's not dependent at all. But with Gpus, man, this is a great story. Like I cannot name to (and names, but for example, when So like last year, I started with A avatar Ai, Avatar ai because I was I was making interior Ai because I started doing Ai stuff and I was typing stuff, like everybody in his prompts, like, to generate images. And I found out that I could build, like, houses very beautiful design houses, So I made a site called this house does not exist dot org, I think.
Peter And it (and random houses, random design, like, house born kinda beautiful. And then I saw it also made very beautiful interior. So I started making interior Ai where you can generate interior. And then I, wonder if you can upload your own home. Interior with image image technology and it kinda modi and I worked, and I made interior.
Peter And then I tried to see if I could fine tune. (and fine tuning where you take the Ai model and you make it more focused towards a specific goal. So for example, you (and to make interiors, because stable diffusion, this image model can make any image. Right? Can make houses, but also are plans, people, anything.
Peter So you wanna focus in interior and gets better results. I train the interior photos (and it gets better results. And then I try train with my own photos to see what happens and it works and you get, like, these these photos of yourself in every style. So And I was like, wow, was very. So I tweeted it, and I went viral.
Peter (and then the next day I was like, I need to really quickly make a started for this. So I made author avatar ai. (and it was was the first, 1 of the... I think the first big of Ai avatar startup. And then these big companies were following me, so they quickly within a month.
Peter They did the same, and they got, away, they were gonna say Vc funded it and they made... I think, 40000000 dollars. I think I made, like, maybe half a million dollars with it or 400000 dollars, lots. Within the mom for so I'm within in 2 months. It's insane.
Peter But the funny part I want to say is that the the service I used to do this to do fine tuning, the cost of function was 3 dollars. And then when they saw my tweets where I was sharing my revenue that I wasn't making so much money with this, they said, sorry, We need to increase the price to 20 dollars. Training. Mh. And I was selling them for, like, 25 dollars or free dollars.
Peter So for, like, a month, they got all the money and I couldn't switch and they said they difficult. Maybe they were telling the truth they had problems with, like getting Gpus also. But they increase the price and I felt kinda like scammed, you know? And so this is a good example. You're dependent on a supplier who can...
Peter When they see your successful they increase the price. This happens to people who have c space too. There's a Bali c space famous who was very successfully, very cheap brand. And then when they give a successful, after the 1 year lease, They say, oh, now it's like 5 times the rent, (and 10 times the rent. That's what the landlords do.
Peter So these dependencies are not mice So I switched out to a new provider. They're much like replicate replica dot com. They're very nice. They're super helpful. Don't change price.
Peter They don't increase price. They only decrease prices. Is it's amazing. So how do you deal with this man? It's a real problem.
Peter Don't
n/a Yeah. Well, if if there's 1 thing that that you can learn from this experience, it's just to think about alternatives from the start. Right? If you have a service that you're building on. Like, you you have to find a way to abstract it enough so you can have another service to plug into your system.
Peter Exactly. So you have to go 1 level higher, so you have to get your own feed virtual private server with Gpus, you know? But then you need to learn the code Python and do all this stuff. And man, and this python is too much for you. This Gpu it's too difficult.
Peter So I hired a Ai developer for this to help me with these models because I... It's just too difficult for me. I I cannot... Like Danny Post. He's my friend and he makes heads pro dot com.
Peter Head shots Pro or Head Pro. And he he he... He did it himself first, I think now I hired more people, but he's smarter than me, He can do like python stuff and, yeah, it's it's... I tried so much, but it's like my heads... You know?
n/a Well, it's (and 1 of these things that is so specific that as. You know, as a as a solo (and of dev dinner to build stuff. You don't (and dive into something that takes you 3 years of university to understand. Right?
Peter Man. I think that's... Would take me 6 months of understanding this package manager. There's not the pie pa... Just too much I and I cannot get it working.
Peter It's just so difficult. And
n/a that's really.
Peter But it shows my limits. This year, I see my clean limits. I'm not so good at this stuff. You know? Mh.
n/a It's did you have a hard time hiring for that? Because that's that's my experience when I (and my business? And I I kinda ran it ran a rant and I thought, Can do it all. Right? Like, you know, the the solo tech (and of person.
n/a Really. It's is that the same for you?
Peter Yeah. Because I thought I could do everything until this year. I thought I could... Man, I I was like complacent and I was arrogant, and I thought because this (and remark and all these stars were... Just work.
Peter And did almost everything myself except customer support and like chat moderators and stuff. And I have a server guy. The server was on but that's was. And I thought I can do every myself. I can do it front (and back end, the everything.
Peter And I could. And the sides always look a little bit clunky because I do Hacker’s myself, but that's like something you take for granted. It's just Yeah. Or you you accept (and not so bad. But this year like man, there's so many things I cannot do, like marketing.
Peter I always rely on organic marketing, organic Seo stuff. And you get... I think Danny passed gut made me very fresh because he's man, he's insane Seo guy. He's like, insane. His whole, he makes startups ups just based on the keywords, like he discovered this Linkedin hatch works so well.
Peter That was most of the searches. Say it makes this service, specifically this niche. Because he was also making like Avatar work. Very smart. So I (and about Seo more.
Peter Now I'm learning about tiktok marketing So I hired a guy to help me with men. Because I Ty tiktok is saying, I I took ones) influencer. He posted about photo dot com. My Ai photo start up. And Mr went from 12 k to, like, 40 or 50 k.
Peter That's insane.
n/a That's that's insane.
Peter Right? Right? And it stayed that way, And, of course, I was sharon, so I also worked it, but this shows you have a really big effect of these influence and it's way bigger effect than press. Like I also got a lot of press for these Ai serves and this press does almost nothing. You can put the logos on in your site, but nobody links and clicks on these links.
Peter It's the same.
n/a I had Danny on the show a couple episodes ago, and it
Peter was awesome.
n/a Like, his his focus on Seo. That's just something that... I personally have never done. I guess just something I I had word marketing and my things and that was fine, but he's just diving into the data and, like, pulling out the things and building businesses on top of that. That's like domain.
n/a Right? Like finding great domain building a domain on top of the our business on top of that domain name. That's just such a smart data driven approach, really like that. And danny too, is building a team. He's building a studio.
n/a Right?
Peter He's building
n/a something out there. So I guess you're (and in parallel with that, Like, trying to expand your your capacity behind behind yourself.
Peter Hundred percent. And we... Like, we always do, like, tech swap because he sees my photos that suddenly look much better on Twitter, My photos. (and ask, man, what are you doing now?
n/a Yeah.
Peter (and I and I... And we give each other hints. So we say like, man, Maybe look at this feature and try this. We... You know, but we're not competing because he's their hedgehog, and I don't wanna do hairstyles.
Peter It's this like Niche. I'm doing more general photo studio (and of thing.
n/a Have you ever considered, like, actually working together, like building a business together? Yeah. That's No.
Peter I think with both woods. Because I think we I think I respect him a lot, they respects me a lot. I think it's good in the future. (and technology because my code... He doesn't trust my code, because z ph fee, like square vs.
Peter And he writes, I think proper like Javascript, you know. Yeah. But in general, like man, most of the code is python in the background anyway, Like, that's where the real stuff happens. This front end. So I think could happen in the future.
Peter I think it will be fun, for example, to if I ever sell to try sell, like, together or something, it would be good because it's something like that, but I have a lot respect and I think it's very cool. He's doing and he shake me up a lot because he showed me that... Because first, I was making more money with Avatars. I think at ones) he was making more money these profile pictures. And then heads tossed and herself I like damn.
Peter And I was like, what's going on? Like, I don't like this, you know, because she you wanna win, you know. Mh. And then it was very good me. It was like, okay.
Peter You need to do a lot of stuff, like Seo like marketing, like look at what keywords people searching makes sub pages. All the stuff I wasn't doing and yeah, it's very cool. Yes.
n/a Yes, sense. Sounds like I have a little mastermind group going on there with Danny. Right? Just yeah.
Peter Well, every man, not every day, but, like, once every few weeks, we message going. Yeah.
n/a That's awesome. Yeah. III love I love that you just talked about your code. Because to to me, like your Ph code and then all the the stuff around it and your... Use of Jquery instead of, like, fancy frameworks and all that.
n/a That has become almost a meme in the community. (and I mean it's
Peter in the best sense.
n/a Right? Like, people people think it's really funny that somebody is still coding like it's the nineties. But also people think, oh wow, crazy, you can still do this and still be successful. I (and it about how you approach technology because if I think about your tech stack, it's just Ph (and and a little bit of javascript, that's it. Right?
n/a Do do you do you ever consider, like, actually changing that up because you just set that? Like, if if you work with somebody else? Yeah they don't trust your code. You know Like, if you ever sell your business, Have you ever thought about that? Like, how are I complicated that might actually make selling the business?
Peter Yeah. Look, the thing with this meme is I exaggerate the meme for viral effects. Before I make it look like my coat is really bad, but it's much bad, like, people really things is really bad. (and man, I'm not saying it's great, but it's... Man, it's pretty good.
Peter It's like great. Clear now it's highly common. It's very... And Like I write in multiple files now, you know, this of Ph p was in the beginning, you know? I use github.
Peter It's it's pretty there's a very structural (and that I made myself, like, folder structure and files and, like, there's workers, this like scheduled workers That robots (and do stuff. There's app. There's a data file or the database and stuff and it all uses like Sql. So it's very structured. So I think a B developer, can get and they have, like Had developers for small things come on and it's pretty...
Peter They can find what they want find. So Does work. But I think it's more about it means, it's it's it's more... It's not about Speech, it's more about the point that it doesn't matter that you have these developers who work in enterprise (and agencies. (and there's this agency Ml, I feel like, where you have a you have a company that doesn't know anything with tech.
Peter They come to a web agency, (and ones) like a website or app and stuff, and these web need to sell, like the best stuff. So they say we use the newest technology, like, we use some big framework new, and they need to they use as a si thing and then these developers need to (and update their skills to use this technology. And this is like a cycle and it's a whole economy because you have this ecosystem of, like, frameworks now gets funded, and they have evangelist eventual And like complex like versa. I like versa, but they are very... That's a big example.
Peter They. They have evangelist list who make developers promote the stuff all the time and the work for them. That's the whole thing. And they're Vc fund and they need grove and all good, but this makes new developers think that they need all this technology to make stuff. And this technology is nice, but in many ways, a lot of the new technology is makes things more complicated often.
Peter And there's a called I think Tall lab Nas lab always talks about Lin effect where all technology it's proven because it just works, because it's old, right? Like Ph p is very old this works. New technology, you need to be a little bit dis truss of because it's often breaks, like (and, I this when you buy like smart, home stuff, like I go in Airbnb b there's some some smart Tv or something you know? And it's so difficult to watch Tv now. This is kinda (and effect, like a old tv just works.
Peter It shows And it's tested. You know? Yeah. So I think that's my whole point of this, like, doesn't matter what you use. There's no need for this skepticism (and developers.
Peter If you are entrepreneur, it's all about... Like, if you're developer Ac share. But if you're an entrepreneur, (and the problem is a lot of these developers that work as freelancers as they wanna be an entrepreneur, You So they bring this whole bug eyes, this baggage of having to use this stack and over engineering. And while the code is so elegant (and the stuff, to something where the priority should be getting customers and getting people
n/a To
Peter pay money because they survive, you know, you pay your rent.
n/a Kind of developers and I think we both kind of are developers. Right. We're so tool focused. We saw we look at the things and we wanted to be optimal. We wanted it to be the best thing for that solution.
n/a I'm kinda glad that you're showing that you can just stick to 1 tool and just make it happen. Right? There probably is some framework out there that is like 2.7 percent faster. In some regard, but it doesn't matter. Right?
n/a If you're fast enough to bring a thing to market, that's when you monetize ties. Not when you use the best tool possible. I think you talked about this in the beginning too is like, or that's (and of the tweet that I was referring to when you were talking about having to deal with the. Lack of mode and just as an Ai started, Right? When you you (and of have to imagine that the competitors is just a couple months around the corner, like your execution speed, like is so much more important than the request.
Peter (and percent.
n/a Speed of the the web framework that you use. Right?
Peter Yeah. Hundred percent And Man, most developers pretty slow to be honest, like man, I'm not good developer, but I'm really fast. You this 1 skill I have. I... Because I don't...
Peter Make things too complicated. May I repeat myself all the time. And then if I repeat myself 10 times, like, you know, don't repeat yourself as the (and. Then I write a function, but I don't People... Like, people try immediately write a function for some of you repeat twice.
Peter It's like, man, this tweet... Repeat it to... You know, like, this kind of stuff. And I think especially in beginning when you make a start when you make something new, it's very important to not ob obsessed over this because you're trying to validate something. You're trying to...
Peter You have an idea. Right? Like, (and have this avatar. And this was... (and it wasn't even cold.
Peter It was just a index of Html, actually. It was just a page with examples of the Avatar you can generate (and the input photos and then a link to type form. No. Stripe checkout, Stripe payment link. That was it.
Peter Went to get your Avatar stripe payment link. And there was nothing else, and then I would go to stripe and check the email, And on Stripe Checkout (and, the link after payment is a type form. So they went to a type form where it collected all the photos with file uploads. And then I would manually... So immediately I had like 100 orders.
Peter So manually, I did Thing these hundred (and 200 orders myself. So we download the photos, and then I would go to this this platform to do this fine tuning and I would upload their photos (and then I would download the resolve for man. It horrible work, (and work. I'd spend like, all night as doing this. And then I started automated the second day.
Peter And after week, it was a lot of work. After week, it find it was automatic.
n/a Wow.
Peter So that's example where you... There wasn't even codes. There was just a a landing page and a tweet payment link. And then when It I work, you (and make the codes, you know?
n/a Right. Yeah. You have a process that you can actually implement. Right? You have steps that you can then automate.
Peter Yeah. Because you proved that it worked that there's a business maybe and then... You can invest the time to code something. But coding takes a lot of time. There's is, know the cartoon, the s x cd or something?
n/a The Yeah major...
Peter Yeah. Know they have to cartoon, Like, how much there's a chart, like, how much time it takes automate something, and how much time the thing itself takes. And often, the time it takes to automate something is higher than the time of the thing takes. So to if that's true, just do it yourself manually until, you know, obviously if you (and all nights uploading downloading photos, it takes too much time, you can automate it faster. Right?
n/a So Yeah. For sure. I mean, if if that was 1 night's work? And how much did you charge per per photo at?
Peter Dollars. You know, that's
n/a like the 3000 dollars for nights work, that's not too bad. Right?
Peter Yeah. It looks like 2 to 6000. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah.
n/a Yeah. I mean, some people would do that for life if they could. Just but, you know, It's it's still pretty cool to to do this. I I really really enjoy that this particular way of doing this. Like, particularly with Ai.
n/a Right? A tool there's probably hard to automate when there is a lot of manual figuring things out. Right? As as well with the whole tuning, fine tuning kind of stuff. It's really cool that you did this 4 a day or a week until you had it all figured out.
n/a I I think that's that's an Indie hacking approach. The the (and of what Paul Graham caused the concierge approach. Right? So the idea of doing stuff with the white glove treatment. I do this for you instead of yeah.
n/a Giving everything automated. A lot of people wanna build software from day 1. They wanna build a tool. They (and log. They want to stripe integration.
n/a They want all kinds of things, and then they wanna make money. But you made money by just doing the thing. Which is really weird
Peter Yeah. But I think it's also because I did so much wrong. I did I (and like... Man, I talked so much about I spent like, a year on some Youtube analytic startup up in, like, (and 13, 14 is something, 13, I think. And then nobody paid for it Nobody wanted to be customer and it was just everything was amazing in face was amazing, but nobody...
Peter You know. So I'm so traumatized by this, like, it's just... I'm not gonna build anything until these customers, you know, like generally.
n/a Whenever I go to product hunt and I see all these tools there. You know, you have the top 5 that are really interesting. And then you have a couple more that have... You know, a few uploads and then you have the 400 things that are launched that day that have no votes between all these 400 behind every single 1 of them is a is a developer who spends 6 months building the perfect product.
Peter I always so it's so sad. And like, they all look really good. Like, the landing page is a beautiful... Like, beautiful design is like a red flag for me. You know?
Peter This beautiful gradients and these... Now you have these borders that move.
n/a It's fancy.
Peter It's so fancy. If it's too fancy, it means you spend too much time on design or you it's some Vc started that (and too much money on designers. If it's the beginning, if it's not valid yet, You know? And I prefer very ugly web in the beginning that just... Because man, look at Google, look at the beginning it very ugly.
Peter Look at Facebook. First page was very ugly. You need to have a very ugly basic beginning page, I think to validate something first.
n/a Yeah. But that's just (and also what the whole discussion about Indie Hacker’s being dead or different. I think different is just a better phrase. Right? It's not it's not dead.
n/a It's still there, but it's not the same as it what it used to be like 7 years ago. 7 years ago, it was a movement. Today it's just how things are done. It it has arrived. Right?
n/a It's (and what it is. But right think that's what Indie Hacking is also doing. And I I think Danny posted about this, like, Indie Hacking is (and new drop shipping. That's what he kinda called it. Or there were people then in the replies to your tweet saying, well, yeah, people have just higher expectations of products now.
n/a So India Hacker’s now looks different (and all that. I that's important too. Right? Like, for us hackers, we can deal with a, you know, with a really shitty page that has like barely Css (and there no automation, you know, Exactly that there is a manual component doesn't matter. You still wanna use it because you're an early adopter.
n/a But with Indie hacking going into mainstream, I think you crossed the chasm as well. And you now have all these these normal people and just call them that. Yeah. That 1 products that are (and proven that have... That need social proof already.
n/a And you did this pretty well because you are your own social proof. Like, your your history of products and you're building in public, like, whatever you launch, you have social proof already. Right? Like, that that's that's something that stands out particularly in your case that now that you're reaching like 340000 followers on Twitter. You bring this with you?
n/a But how would you... If somebody were to start in hacking today, What would you tell them to get to this point? Would you tell them to to have the the social proof that they need to launch products.
Peter Matt, Honestly, look, this is like very controversial. I think you should always do to opposite else doing? So now if enact is mainstream information, you should probably, like, do something include different. (and know what I? Like, you should go where nobody is going, because Yeah.
Peter When I started... Man, I was almost nobody was only Pet 11 Patrick Mckenzie was bootstrapping startups ups. And else was raising ph. It was it was not normal to boost. It was very, very, very normal.
Peter And now it's normal. So I don't. I always feel you need to run away from the herd, You know, the sheep, you need to go somewhere else. Where no... Like, look for the part of the grass where nobody is and go there.
Peter You believe in this, you know, and then spend a lot of time spend years on this. But about social proof, I don't know. I think maybe it's not important. Maybe it's just... It's it's important you make something that's like a problem that's out there.
Peter Like, you know look at all the subreddit It's there's a lot of problems there. Like, every subreddit is like a goal and you can go see this or startups you can make around that. Like somebody... This is mean about craigslist, Right? Every category has become a start.
Peter You (and do same with subreddit. Now maybe the read of the day is Tiktok. Right? Go to Tiktok. See what's going on Tiktok and see what people want and make startups around there.
Peter Maybe this answer. Start doing tiktok. I tell everybody this for year. I don't even do it myself a lot myself, but it shoots. But do go to Tiktok and see what's going on there.
Peter And document your journey, not on Twitter maybe but on Tiktok. And So, hey, I'm Peter. I'm just starting out, I wanna make Zara, I wanna make some money and pay my rent and every day, I'm gonna make a video about this and what I'm doing and this new feature. That would be how I would approach it in 2000 entry. Yeah.
Peter I wouldn't probably be on Twitter x at all. You know? Yeah.
n/a Interesting. Yeah. That definitely a building in public where those people that you wanna serve actually are. Right? And that's...
n/a If if there's a And then that that is something that I really wanted to ask you because we we talked a lot about Ai startups and that kind of stuff. And it feels to me that the demographic for them is a younger crowd. Right? And like people who they they have no problem with Ai. Like, I don't know if you you've seen the same, but in our community, A lot of people are very afraid of Ai.
n/a Right? So that there seems to be a generational divide there and saying Tiktok is the new place to do this in front of people who are willing to... Accept that this is the way to go, probably a good idea. What do you think about this whole (and, like, Ai is is the end of humanity kinda. What's yours your?
Peter Well, first of all, this generation thing is harm right. Like Gen z doesn't care. They just use it. Like, jen... Man, I I work now with...
Peter I know the guy from (and, David Park, I think and he uses a tiktok and all these students use this app Jenny... And I think it the rice papers for you, or helps you with writing papers. And everybody used this like (and 50 k Mr, it's insane, man, they nobody, You're right. Nobody says, like, is this good or bad. Mh.
Peter Man is is this good or bad thing comes Think from millennials? Like we're millennials. Right? Yeah. And journalists who are also millennials, and people that wanna, you know, maybe it's are closer to, like, challenge everything, which (and of good (and make make a problem out of everything.
Peter And there is, of course, fundamental philosophical things you can talk about, but I don't think it's very useful to constantly complain in every reply, you know, about the problems with Ai and I was going to destroy humanity. I don't know. I I think look at the good size (and Look how it can benefit everybody. Of course, our great leader, Elon elon Musk you know, is also complaining about Ai. Right?
Peter He's like, it's gonna be the end of humanity. So what am I saying? You know? Mh.
n/a But he's also, like, from a much older generation. Right?
Peter Yeah You're right. Right. You're right. No. But they...
Peter Of course, there's there's risk, but... Man. I I get (and tired of his whole, like, negative scene on Twitter to start, like, 2016, and I feel died off like, when Elon musk bought Twitter. And it's a very politically engaged scene and they're very like angry. And I don't see them a lot anymore.
Peter I think they moved to (and, but Versus is new single Twitter. I don't know you've saw e slash acc, like it's like about acceleration. It's like people who are kind of philosophical and they also wanna... They are positive about the future of humanity and our technology can you... How we can use technology to make the future guarantee better.
Peter And it's e slash acc, and people have this in their nickname and I follow ups you people, like beth. It's like Jeff Bezos, but Bev Jay. He's like the leader or something. It's very interesting group of people, very positive and I feel that's (and positively generally works better, you know, I mean, I say this after complaining about Sony headphones. Mh.
Peter For 3 days straight. But but passed... No, but I still believe in the future of Sony headphones if they fix some stuff. But I think positively works better than complaining. I feel...
Peter Okay. Let's be honest. I think there's some powerless listens if you cannot (and and you see ai ice stuff happening and you're not making money with it. And your income is not increasing because incomes are stagnant now. And the government is not providing basic income, which is like free money for people because technology you're placing a lot of stuff.
Peter I understand clearly that you feel... Did you feel bad about this, and you're gonna complain. Like people complain about foreigners in in Portugal, you know? Or people complain about Ai you know in journalism. Or the writers strike in America?
Peter It's big thing like this they the people who write Tv shows and the movies they on strike all the time because they think Gp 4 replace them. Man, maybe will. So I understand the problem. As always, I think the government should provide basic income to most people. And I think I don't know if there will be a lot of new jobs created actually.
Peter I... Generally, people believe in that. I don't really believe in that.
n/a It's a it's it's a whole philosophical or so societal conversation about, like, should we even want? Everybody to have to work to feel that they're participating in society. Right? That's that's a thing. Like, the whole...
n/a Like, full employment of a country? Is that even something we need as humans? Or could we just?
Peter So I think of honest. Yeah.
n/a III agree with you there, and I think I'm I'm a big star trek fan of I've always been a very optimistic sci f future (and of person. But just recently, I watched the terminator movies because for some reason, I I needed to... To go back to the eighties and nineties and watch some really really interesting movies. And I honestly, I I do understand that fear in the eighties and nineties of what technology is gonna do, which is what terminator is all about. Right?
n/a What if Ai computer computers take over. That fear is very present in those movies, And I think if you're socialize with this, if this is how you approach a technology, then everything you look at is potentially something that destroys everything around you. Right? So the fear just destroy society that destroys your habitat and all that. And we do see some of this.
n/a Right? The what you just is it's extremely wonderfully phrase, like, the people who are not able to code who are not able to control the machine. They are afraid of the machine. That is that is very scary.
Peter And we are on like both. We have Ai stars are like, wow, it's so good. Yeah. Because make money with it. You know?
n/a It's right.
Peter Of course, I'm positive eyes. You. Hundred percent agree. Because But I feel like as always, I feel people shouldn't blame this scape code, like the technology can be very every technology has the same amount of bad and good it brings, you know? And Ai 2, Internet 2.
Peter Right? It's brought a lot of scams and man, people died, you know, because Internet. (and and people were born because of Internet, So it's both Ai is the same thing. And but I think governments shoots... Somehow and governments are not so efficient, you know, in general.
Peter But they should they should... I think again, they should provide basic can come, And I think people can do voluntary work, for example. There's lot social stuff that has to be done, like, people need kids need to be raised. In more like communities I feel like there's a lot of stuff that can be voluntary work. And
n/a in more paperwork too. Right? Like, just having a base... Work to. Doesn't mean that people don't make money from work.
n/a It just means that they don't have to work to survive. That's the only.
Peter Exactly. So I think the technology it should be protect people protected so the technology doesn't destroy their income. The basic you know, level of, like, having a nice house, being able to just buy nice good food and live and live a bay... I think live a good life should be the goal for everybody in Humanity. And Yeah.
Peter But I'm dutch, you know, I'm a little socialist.
n/a I'm also a little bit socialist because I'm from East Germany man. I'm like. That's exactly what it is. But, yeah, I I do see a need for this. I I see a need for people feeling safe.
n/a From this kind of technology because they have no no agency over making it work for them. Right? It it it works at them. It doesn't work for them it (and. It's it's attacking them, addressing them in the way.
n/a And in a in a funny way, this kind of fear of not knowing what's gonna happen with the technology. It also exists for us as founders. Right? As entrepreneurs. You...
n/a What you said this tweet of yours from earlier age, I'm just gonna get back to it back to it, like, there is... There is no no way for us to protect our technology because it's not our technology to protect. Like, we only build on top of these things. So is building an Ai startup up something you would suggest to somebody who just is starting out as an Indie hacker?
Peter Man. It's so the full question. Right? Mh. Right.
Peter I think so. I mean should you should always try stuff with technology because you can combine technology in new ways. Unique ways that work for you. I finish you you'd always try, like, try. Like, you could always say it.
Peter You're always too late with everything. Right? You're always too late like people said in 20 13 14 I'm too late to do startups now because already the dropbox Airbnb b became big and I'm it's too late now. Krishna not too late, It's never too late. You should just start.
Peter And you never know what's next. Like now it's Ai, there will be always something next and jump jump away, but man, but this is the reason last year when this Ai stuff started booming like around like, I think Gp chat Gp (and and then stable fusion launched or if vice versa in the same month. And it suddenly people like, oh, shit This really works now. And then I started like, scrambling. I'm like, man, now is the time to build a lot of stuff and see what sticks because if I if I wait 6 months, it's I'm not gonna, you know, it's not gonna stick, like everybody already did everything.
Peter So I spent insane time making lot of stuff to just sketch this wave. Now we're like, what? 1 half, 1 years in, 1 half years in or something, I mean when you're... (and now it's quite late in that sense, it's never too late. Right?
n/a Yeah.
Peter But I think you have some (and of... First mover advantage doesn't always work, but you have some kind of advantage if you if you catch wave, you know? (and new technological wave because people wanna use technology and the technology is always very brutal, like it's very hard to use for people. So if you add a front end to new technology, you can start using it. I mean, no was the same.
Peter People were already know. But it was very hard to find out where to go, what the Internet was, what the these basic things was all separated on different blogs. Blog posts. Like, oh, you should come to Thailand. No now It should come to Mexico.
Peter It was like travel bloggers. So collecting all that together, made it, you know, user friendly to go to become a no. The same thing. So you catch your wave, make technology easier to use.
n/a Do you still invest a lot of time in your old businesses, you know, the the ones that are pre Ai?
Peter Yeah. Normally there's it's still a lot like I'm improving it like, every every week. And I think soon... Once all the Ai stuff (and kinda all the stuff I wanted to... Do still on number to do this with Ai stuff is finished.
Peter I will probably go back to normal and make it make improve it. Like, I've been working on 3 d globe, like, phenomenal for the last 2 months. Like because this globe was map before and now it's like this... Treaty globe with like lines of, like, I went to thailand (and then to Kat qatar (and Holland and then Brazil, for example. And that kind of stuff.
Peter So I that that's my most favorite project I think in turns of, like, I feel really like, my baby and it's... You (and you can work on this product forever. I said, just that you can work on this until you're 80 because there's always a different way to figure out what's the best place to live, like, for you personally. It's such a difficult problem. So like You know?
n/a It's funny how this this reminds me of what you said earlier with the (and effect, Right? Things that have been around for a long time, They will be around for an equally long time. It's kinda what that means to me. No my is something like this too. You've been doing this for a while, and it's still around and you're still improving it, and it's still...
n/a It's finding customers. That's fairly interesting, particularly.
Peter That's very stable.
n/a Contrast it against your ai eye start upsell, like up and down and super expensive and complicated platform risk, an an interesting lesson to be a drawn from that, I think. Right? The Yeah. The long term (and
Peter Yes. I'd never expect to stay long It's like 9 years now, and III always expected... Because I had a Youtube channel before electronic music mixes, and they went up really fast, like 8 k per month, and then I went down also very fast. I thought every business is like probably hype. So you...
Peter I... Those always traumatized, like, okay. This is just for 1 or 2 years, need to make a lot of money. But it keeps it keeps going and it makes men. It's average...
Peter Usually, like, 40 or 50 or 60 k per month, a lot of money. So just no middle. So... Not a lot of costs. So it's a very nice business.
n/a Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. It it definitely sounds calmer. Right?
n/a Like less less crazy than the Ai started.
Peter Man, Yeah. I tweet about today, like, this Ai stuff is so stressful because you you always need to stay ahead of the game and of competitors. And when a new technology comes out... Like now it's a little bit slow, but last year, every week, there was some new thing, new breakthrough, and you need to implement this very fast and it's It's stressful for sure. Like, it's it fucks of your sleep, you know?
Peter Like, yeah pissed stuff. You need...
n/a You sell them? Would you would you sell Ai businesses?
Peter I think I I think I'll I'll get it to a certain level, like maybe hundred k Mr for Photo I and Interior and then, like... Yeah I got them valued recently and the multiples for Is r's are very good, like they're very they're quite high like, Normally for, like, any stars you get like, 23X or something. Right? For Ai, or can be like 5 or 6 or even 8, because it's (and hype now. So I think again, the promise profit, like, the multiples are based on profit.
Peter Yeah. So you need to make... You need to cut these costs rapidly, and then you need to go to broker and then you need to sell for, like, Good good amount of money. But... Man, it's I don't know.
Peter It's hard to sell. It's always like (and nice challenge. She's Ai stuff and good but it is stressful, you know, probably gives you heart disease.
n/a Yeah. I mean, if not, like, (and mental health issues, right, with anxiety and and dealing with, like, all these unforeseen changes in the the platforms like (and dependency on open ones) on open Ai and all their platforms. Right? If they decided to do the Elon musk for 2000 dollars a month kinda move. I mean, you could probably handle it, maybe but, you know, like, that...
n/a It would be such a such a bastard move really to deploy.
Peter Yeah. Yeah. Well, the the good thing for Ai is very open. So when 1 when 1 company will raise the surprises very fast. You can probably easily.
Peter Back then not really, but now you can easily switch to another a provider. There's so many providers now. So there's no there's less platform of pen, you now than a year ago, you know? Because there's a lot of Api providers now. But, yeah.
Peter But it is stressful, you know. But I go Gym, I go that lived and, you know, over press (and squats and then it's good from our mind. I don't have anxiety a lot (and but still is stressful.
n/a Yeah. I bet. Yeah. That's that's the thing with with these (and of hype startups. Right?
n/a You really have to push and then you have to make as much as you can and then go to the next thing. And that feels... It doesn't feel like very sustainable.
Peter Not my vibe, you know? Yeah. I like building long term businesses. And that's what I had with these avatar. It felt so.
Peter K to me so gimmicky. Like, it's not really my vibe. Like Yeah. It's kinda like 2 too short term, You know? And this photo, feels more like a photo studio for long term, Like, it can have potentially locked.
Peter But how who knows? Because Ai, you don't know how long. But the intention is to have a long term product can stay... Even if you saw that can stay for, like, 5 years or 10 years, you know? Because the philosophy is that you can have photography, without needing a camera, You know, like, you can just train yourself and then you can make unlimited Ai photos anywhere in the world from your computer know you're on the beach or you're in the office, you're anywhere.
n/a Such an interesting way of thinking about photography. Like, Yeah. Wait it it completely removes the the act of photography. Acts Gone.
Peter Right. Don't to call anywhere anymore. Just to works.
n/a Yeah. It it's it's such a such a cool idea and I I kinda love that. It's like you... And I kinda also hate it. Like give it from a sense somebody who likes to take photos.
n/a Right? It's it's it's a weird... I'm torn on on both sides. And I love the fact that it makes money. I I hate the fact that It's so easy to build.
n/a So everybody built it.
Peter Man. It's like Photoshop. Photoshop at the same... When I was a kid, Photoshop came out and... The news newspapers are full of photoshop, like this is gonna destroy photography, every fake now, and it didn't.
Peter Like, all it did was the people use it for touching up or for art and stuff. So it's become a tool and I feel with all the stuff becomes a tool for, like I imagine you have a wedding photography, it makes a lot of photos and then there's not a single good 1 Okay. Maybe you can use Ai to train this person (and then you can make some renders and then stitch them back into the photo. Yeah. You know, like...
n/a That that is really cool. That makes sense.
Peter That can be can... Can we be mix of reality (and Ai, You know, Like, that's probably the the future. So...
n/a That that's I that I... Was gonna ask you what you think of a ai being in the future, but I kinda hear the sentiment of Ai as tools that make actual things easier. I that is always gonna be the future. Right? It's not that the Ai is gonna do everything for us.
n/a Ai is gonna help us do the things better. That's how I see it at least.
Peter See. But I do think it replaces people. Like, I do think it (and replace photographer. So it's like, it is a tool, but you'll probably need 1 photographer instead of 10 photographers, You know, You need 1 person who can control Ai. So yeah, It's interesting.
Peter It's interesting But also for interior designs, like, interior a I dot com. It tries to... A lot of you interior design use it for idea aviation. So you have a client once to get an idea of, like, because clients don't know what they want. So you take a photo of their interior and then you give them a lot of different styles and look do you want this and you can kinda move through idea deviation together to find the style that the customer wants and make them show them out.
Peter (and but this also removes a lot of jobs again because you you need less like... Like I I was looking at the real estate. A lot of them use already people who make these surrender. Especially new construction they use beautiful interior surrender. It's so fake.
Peter And this easily you can do Ai in man take 10 seconds the render of a whole beautiful brand. It normally takes what like 2 days for people to make this. So that's a real thing. But these people can use these tools also
n/a gonna shortcut the a lot of processes that are established already and have, like, people working on them. But that's that's like you said, photoshop is that too. Right? There used to be other tools to, like, manipulate images before and it used to be like a more physical. It's like editing editing video.
n/a Right? People used used to actually cut. Like physically cut. The stuff. My (and that.
n/a It got digitized all of a sudden. You do in in a second what took hours to get done. Right?
Peter Exactly. (and now you can add your iphone, you know, like, yeah. My dad is a big... He's a his favorite thing is film editing. Yeah.
Peter And he did this with... He has classic film tips and he caught and glues everything before. And then he had his video set a professional video like bat common stuff, And now it's like Final cut Pro. But then I'm, like, look at my iphone, like I make videos in my iphone now in in Detector games edit even faster. And it is high quality.
Peter So you know, it's all changing fast and yeah it would keep changing. And Ai is part of that. So
n/a Yeah. I (and find it so interesting that you you have you get to see both sides. You get the the boring project, let's... I'm not gonna call no middle as boring, but it (and is like in terms of the know, the hype around it, it's just used by the people that need it, and that's it.
Peter Yeah.
n/a And you get the the hype ish projects that that get headlines that get, like, coverage and the press and that kind of stuff.
Peter But this was no this before, of course, Like 9 years ago. No This was what got a lot of, like, it was in New York times. Wasn't all the articles. Was like oh my god. Deal nomads kinda go everywhere.
Peter So... Yeah. It was hype and then it hype ends and becomes normal, becomes mainstream.
n/a Do you think like being a no is still... Something like, Obviously, I I see you traveling around the world. My question was not, like, it's still around, obviously. No no no isn't dead. Right?
n/a But is is it still something that you personally do? You wanna do this forever? It same like with your business? Do you wanna keep being an Indie hacker forever? You still wanna travel?
n/a Also
Peter Man, like, this the problem this idea of the nomads like most of them are slow mats and they start out very fast. They go, like... You know, sometimes weak to week to different place. Like (and of like backpack peck, then it becomes month to month and then it becomes like 3 months, usually or 6 months in my place and I feel... And I also slowed down a lot.
Peter Like, with Covid, I just stopped. Everybody stopped traveling. Right?
n/a Right.
Peter This year was kinda crazy travel, but before I was... You know, I tried to, like, keep it to, like, 2 countries. And I think for mental health, also, like I think you do go crazy if you keep traveling so much. I personally do a did, you know? Because you don't know where you are anymore I literally...
Peter There was a literally thing with No. As you wake up and, there's a thing, like, they don't know, like, where am I And you look I said, oh, okay. I mean, Croatia or you know this stuff. Yeah. Man it's probably not so good.
Peter But it's very interesting lifestyle, but I think long term, like, man, if you have a relationship and If you have kids later, all this stuff, I still think you can move, but you probably wanna limit to a few places, you know? And I think We just become the same as what people, like retirees do. They are like like, in America right There? What do they call, like, birds, like winter birds or something like they They go... Snow in the winter, they go to Florida and in the summer, they go to New York or something.
Peter This is the setup. So it's just... It's gonna go to the same thing, and I I do it this already. Like, Europe in the south, it gets cold in winter. I try to go to Asia, Southeast, Asia where it's warm.
Peter I try mix like the big city Asia with small village sovereign Europe on the beach. I think this works for me. But of course, personal will works here. But... Yeah, no is very still very active and lively and There's real, like spots like bali is still a very big spot in Thailand also in Mexico with the Americas now coming in because they...
Peter Can work only. A lot of them are by default Nomads and they live in Mexico. But, yeah, our lot no manning a lot probably less, you know, it's but a lot of people are living in not their original countries now because of remote work and it's kind of called digital no, right?
n/a I guess. Yeah. (and in a way, anybody working from a computer is (and digital no like, no matter if
Peter in there in another country, like... It's another a content in their home country, and that's become very normal. So I think it's still like... I think man, I think it's still very cool lifestyle. Like, If I was 20, I would not go probably university anymore I would just go travel with my laptop and try little startups ups and stuff.
Peter And it's such a travel such a... Especially solo travel, you you have to survive, you have to meet people. Like, so if you... Everybody has social anxiety these days, so you have to go out there and and talk to people, and you learn how to talk to strangers. And, you know, I was very probably shy before I now I'm not because I I learned how to talk to people Learn to go out of my room (and you know, and survive.
Peter And I think this stuff (and learn from travel. Every city you go, you can be new personality, You can test your personality as you know, yeah. Sounds a little psychopathic, but it's... Yeah. You know your hometown, your Ab test.
Peter Yeah. But you know your hometown, you're you're this this certain ar. But then
n/a you go
Peter out of your country, you you become international Orbits. You're you're, like, very different. And you try this, you know, you try to be very ex. And you can... A lot of people test this, and I think that's very cool benefit of no.
Peter And
n/a that sounds awesome. And it also sounds like (and kinda sounds like Twitter to me. Can also be the person that you wanna be. Right? Like you project, like, the the best parts, hopefully or the worst parts of your personality onto social media, how do you deal with that?
n/a Like, you have a pretty sizable following now. And so with with all the the changes that have been recently made to Twitter or x. As we call it. Right? Yeah.
n/a There's a lot of lot lot of difference in how we how we approach engagement And what gets views what gets, like retweeted, what gets actually pushed by the algorithm. How do you deal with this? Because you you have a lot of reach.
Peter Matt. So I think the changed with Elon changing it and a team because... Before before everything would kinda get fuse (and like. Right? It would take, like a...
Peter To go out, everything would get, like, you know, get exposure. You would... A lot of you would see your tweets anyway, whatever you erode, and some would go viral a little bit. I think they changed it more to, like, where if something goes viral on the beginning, it becomes pumped maximum. So it goes like, before I would get like (and hundred retreat.
Peter Now if something environment gets a thousand, it goes very far. But on the other side, often (and tweets good, like, 2 legs. Yes. You know? And I have 300000 followers.
n/a So bizarre.
Peter So they they so we... I think they test in the beginning, once you tweet a test, does this feed work or not, do people care about it and I think how they tested it. They check how many seconds you watch the tweets. The people who watch your tweets. You scroll true, and they they count now the numbers a (and, and Il elon Musk told said this, you know?
Peter And when this tweet doesn't perform well, they just don't show it anymore a lot. So become more extreme and this, of course, creates even more extreme Twitter because you get tweets that have to go really far, really extreme to get you know, like Don kinda, and then they get a lot of your tweets or nothing.
n/a Yeah. Yeah. It's really bad. I it's it's... It's (and disappointing.
n/a Right? Because if you just tweet something honest, that is just, you know, (and that that comes from a place that is not extreme, but it's still important. And it gets just like an a washed away and buried beneath all these the outreach things. (and makes mixed twitter a less less enjoyable platform at least from for me.
Peter Yeah. I think so, like, product updates, they don't really... Like, I used to always... I always do product updates. Like I made this new feature and I...
Peter They used to get, like, you know, like, a lot of views they get less much less now because it's not that interesting It's kinda like, yeah, it's kinda nice, you know? So the long term kind of vibe of Twitter changed a little bit. But I do have faith in our great leader, Il elon, mask, he can improve it. I think it's also... Survival thing, like, they need to get more monthly active views, they need to.
Peter Become more like Tiktok, Tiktok because marks algorithm. Like, they check every video and they see if it works not, and then they pump it also. I think he's on Tiktok a lot (and checking this and he wants to make Twitter very similar. And all the video also text, but then with the Tiktok algorithm. So It you know, you have O ours like the metric target, which is like more users uses.
Peter And now, I think Twitter has a... Record use like 500000000 active users of use. So it does work, but it changes the vibe a little bit. But I I ignored it I just still tried to tweet whatever I think. And man if nobody cares anywhere, I'll keep tweeting because I was tweeting nobody care 10 years ago.
Peter I'll just keep completely exactly. Right. It's about your own, you know, Joe. You should enjoy it. You shouldn't do it for the audience, maybe.
Peter Yeah.
n/a Yeah. And and the people who enjoy what you do, they will find you. Right? Like, if you're if you're just consistent enough. No.
Peter Go to your profile And they read your stuff. Right? They won't maybe not sit the time now, but they will go to there. So I think man, like, don't be Tread, you know, like don't do like, the 5 things you need, the 5 Ai tools you need in 2 of plus 24, like boosted.
n/a Number 3 will surprise you. Right?
Peter Now how materials shocking. Yeah. Both bullshit. This... Man, what I love...
Peter 1 thing interesting, he also increased this long posts. Like, now, you can write blog posts. Yes. These blog posts by definition get a lot of few time because of seconds. Right?
Peter These do work really well. So it's almost like a blog platform. So man, a lot of times I just start writing blog posts now on Twitter.
n/a I've seen this too. (and in video too. Right? Like any (and of. Medium to to long form video really does well.
n/a Like, if if people just keep watching a couple seconds because it's so interesting. That's that's the interesting thing about Twitter. Now you need to take Youtube ideas, the idea of a Youtube
Peter intro. For seconds. Right?
n/a Transported it.
Peter I don't believe it's next go and
n/a then take you like, mister beast style, and you need thumbnails and all that stuff. Now on Twitter as well if could if you wanna professional. It just feels it's different. And maybe that's that's the exact same sentiment as we had earlier. In the hacking dead, No this dead.
n/a Twitter dead, we all dad have (and of the old ones at least, It's all you. Right? It's it's all just different at this point.
Peter Yeah. Feel like it's a... But you have these time ski.
n/a Yes.
Peter You know, where a lot of things changed suddenly me. So this is definitely covid, of course, this Covid years and then maybe Affects was more 20 21 20 22. Big kiss (and, like create a new cycle now. Look at their recession also. And man, honestly, these cycles are using 7 years.
Peter That's why I always say 7 years. You can search (and wikipedia. Economic cycles usually 7 years.
n/a Good cycles and cycles.
Peter I don't know. Is that the name?
n/a I think I think it has.
Peter Yeah. But also, like, economic cycles are social cultural cycles too. Yeah. Like when there was a recession in 2000 (and, with... See these hips or coffee shelves pop up in amsterdam.
Peter I remember this vividly. It changed the culture to kinda scrappy and hips there and it chases fashion, you know? It changed everything. So this definitely big cycle because I wearing in a new cycle (and. Ai part of this new cycle.
Peter Right? So in (and years, it's all gonna go again. Mh. And something new. So...
Peter Yeah. But I think, yeah, again, don't be angry about the changes, just embrace and reinvent yourself for this new time and you always need to reinvent yourself. Right? Like, no. No constant.
n/a I think you're right. It is an attention economy. Right? Now everybody has very limited attention because everybody pulling at it from all sides. I I talked to to April and Alter about this Youtube thing too.
n/a Right? Because she knows how to do a good Youtube video. It was funny. I had her on the show. (and the day after that, she published a video that went viral is now at, like, 200000 views or something.
n/a She knows what she's doing was really cool. And like... I watched your video on how to do an intro to to Youtube video. And the whole idea is to to make it absolutely clear what the promise is of the video. What you're gonna do And then surprise people and give a bit more than they expected.
n/a It's really just trying to get people to to feel confident in giving you their attention for a longer time.
Peter But that's like a tweet. Right? (and we write the tweet Like... There's a problem I have... So I thought about it (and I did this and then I solved the problem.
Peter Here's to do it yourself. You know, like it is a formula.
n/a Yeah. And and it is it's required because you need to be able to stand out amongst other people who are also interested in getting attention. Right? It's just a new way to communicate. We used to...
n/a We had a time where we wrote letters all the time and then email came along and then social media came along and now we have this. And this is, I guess just how what we have to deal with.
Peter But the tension economy always become it's always become less attention, Like used to have long movies and then it became. Tv shows, and it became Youtube videos now Tiktok. Yeah. Next will be like, 1 second video or something, You know, like, I don't know, But it's it's always been... By this...
Peter But now I feel both because you have long podcast podcasts like (and is 3 hour podcast. And I listen to the whole things, and it might take me days. Because I listen level here (and next I listen them here. (and and then you also have the clips. You have the take clips of podcast podcasts.
Peter So it works both you have this outlier, you know, like, what do you call the economy of have both sides.
n/a Yeah. So that makes that makes a lot of sense. Like you... (and it's kind of the... You should be zig when everybody else is zag.
n/a Right? That kind of thing. Now you can do long from content for the people who really care about it. And everybody else needs to short term stuff. And even for the short, form content, you can still do the clips, so you get your long form, but short.
n/a That's that's. Yeah... The more I do, like, of podcasts and in Youtube and writing and you newsletter in whatever I do. I do a lot things that... But they're all...
n/a Based on the same material. I just use different ways of distributing the same material. And maybe that is is the lesson here. Right? That's the depending on the media, depending on the medium, like the social media platform or Youtube or whatever, you just have to shape it the right way for people to consume it.
Peter Yeah. Yeah. You could... I think you could learn a lot from these big big famous influencers even if you don't like them, man, they will say, like, outrageous stuff. Like I don't like this guy, but annotate, for example, they...
Peter He says really radical stuff. That's very controversial and too much, you know, And then the long form parts is quite balanced. Like, he (and self down is he's like, but actually what I think, Man, I don't think it's very honest strategy, but I do... There's someone to be learned there where if you say things that are... Quite package into shorts like answers.
Peter That person that can package their answer in the first sentence is probably well and then go for a long form They will... This will get clipped and this person will get more views than a person who cannot make a proper sentence first To summarize, you know? Yeah. So becoming good at writing tweets and even talking now in a short sentence is to come like a like a integral man it can make you rich or not. Right?
Peter Because if your video goes viral, you become famous, you sell products. So man, the take a skill, you know? Yeah. (and and because I ramble.
n/a Well me too. But we're we're we're both trying our best. Right? Yes At least we're trying. We're in the arena not undecided like exactly.
Peter I know.
n/a A lot of the things you say. A lot of people have opinions about. Like, just (and you know, you you get a lot of trolls and you get a lot of people that turn your stuff into memes, how do you feel about that like in particular?
Peter Man is great. It's like it's amazing. Like, these means are amazing and man just as part... What (and what do you expect? Like you tweet, like, you know, controversial stuff.
Peter Right. To a lot of people. And, of course, people gonna... Man people get, like, even like, you know, friends or friends, they mess in chat, like Man, what you tweet it now, it's too much rem. Unacceptable.
Peter I'm following you. I you can't do... You can't say this about this framework, you know? Because I use it. People get really true.
Peter (and. I don't know. It's... I think it's really funny. It's like, but you need to see it as kinda like a game, you know, but man, it sounds so psycho psychopathic soc.
Peter But it's... You cannot take seriously. Like, there it there's... It's impossible to see it as a normal conversation. Because we have a normal conversation.
Peter But if you have now you add 300000 people on the other side, it's just shouting. It's like Lin. It's so... And this changes you I think, and you have to watch out, it doesn't change your personality real life, you know, because you become, but it does a little bit of course. But But I think the benefits generally outweigh the negatives.
Peter He mean a lot of cool people like you. Like, most of my friends are I met for Twitter, you know? Yep. And we met on Twitter. A lot of, like...
Peter Like a lot of famous people also like, people here did the really cool stuff They Dm me and they we talk and stuff and it's like, wow, it's super cool. Like Man, Like, I talk of Dj Fresh, because when I used it make music was (and drum based music, Dj fresh very important figure in in music. You now, he makes Ai star of 2 called voice dash swap dot ai.
n/a Okay.
Peter Plug it. And with Dm, and we talk about a our stuff, and I'm like talking to my drawing based idol. Yeah. You know? It's insane.
Peter It's like every time I'm I'm still shocked. So it's a And I think the more you can even if you write controversial stuff, but you're real pain, you get a lot of attention and via this People understand the twitter. People... People are angry, we don't understand. It's like it's like a stage, You know?
Peter It's a show (and.
n/a Yeah. For sure.
Peter But people who are smart. They understand, okay. These guy on a platform (and is doing a shelving, (and and you you have to take every with grain of salt, you know? (and but True... I I try say things honestly.
Peter I don't say things just to boost it, you know?
n/a Yeah. That's... I guess, if you have controversial opinions. The authentic representation is just to talk to people about those things. Right?
n/a To share these opinions. Like, you you don't hide them. You just... You don't become like the the person that is happy with every single thing or is, like, really really appreciative it for every You just say what you say.
Peter And you... You try be honest. And and and apparently just, like... Controversial. But of course, it becomes controversial because there's so many people Yeah.
Peter And don't have to move with disagree with you. So then it caused by definition controversial, but it's not really controversial, you know, and The problem is if you get scared, most gets tired scared of this and then they start tweeting, like basic normal stuff and it's not inch interesting anymore. Yeah. And I think the reason a lot of people follow is because I know I'm honest and I'm not... Perfect and I write whatever I think and it's usually crazy.
Peter But I also I like this. Yeah. But I I like to say and then perfect like about frameworks or something. And Say something. And (and I like to hear what people like, when people reply, I learned from that and I changed my peace.
Peter Like I have strong opinions, weekly health. I do change my peace all the time. And But it's a stage. It's like a podium. It's it's it's a show (and.
Peter It it's an inevitable that becomes a show. It's very difficult not to make it. And you have people like like Le Friedman, for example, is very cool. And he He gets a lot of hate also, and he he he chooses to talk more about like love, like, we're all connected, 1 world and everybody loves each other. And I like that too.
Peter It's not really my personal style. My is just saying what I think I wanna keep being true to myself. I don't wanna become fake. You know? And not saying like luxury was fake, but he chooses, like lobster lifestyle.
Peter I chooses more like, what's on my in my heart it's on my tongue. Like it's a German Dutch expression I think, and I put that on Twitter. I tried keeping it in all (and sync, you know? Yeah. I don't like to are different offline, you know?
n/a Yeah. That that that's... (and and that's that's perfectly fine, and that's why I appreciate your tweets. I know that when you treat something even if it's controversial, it comes from an honest truthful place. Yeah.
n/a And that is the way you think about it, and that is the way you will talk about it, and I know what I get. Right? That's the thing. It's very authentically you. And I I think that is a really, really smart way to building an audience or whatever you might (and to call it or Just have a Twitter presence or social media presence.
n/a (and just to not hide who you are. And kinda stand behind the things you say.
Peter But so difficult because people are getting really angry and they hate you for your europeans and Yeah. And people... You, you see these breakdowns on Twitter. Right? People just have a meltdown because they get so much hate.
Peter I get this every day.
n/a You me too, yeah, everything think we both follow many, many people through lists and follows. And I think over the last 3 days, I saw, like, 4 people saying, I'm gonna need break from Twitter, this is enough. Right? And that's is it's unfortunate that when it comes to that because people... And I'm the same way.
n/a Like, I post something, 30 people say, this is really cool. 1 person says, this sucks, and all I focus on is this 1 person. And not the 30 other people that really enjoyed what I said.
Peter I let's take yeah.
n/a Yeah. It's bad. But hey, let's let's end this on a high note. I think your your Twitter account is awesome. I think you if you're sharing...
n/a Just you're honestly sharing things that you encounter in your daily code entrepreneur entrepreneurial your life, and I think that is... Absolutely worth sometimes getting into controversial fights with other people who have knew no skin in the game whatsoever, but a lot of opinions. So where would you like people to go to follow you? If they don't already, But where would you like people to go to look at what you do, how you do it and the projects that you're building?
Peter I think Twitter bet was x now, you know, x dot com slash levels I o. So it's LEVEL, like level s I owe. Love I owe. Yeah. Thank you for me.
Peter And I'm big fan of your Twitter count too.
n/a I'm a I'm a big (and of you. Matt. It's so nice. It's... It's taken a couple years for us to have a chat finally, but I'm I'm super happy to be got to talk about all of this today.
n/a I'm really really looking forward to seeing... Like where you're in the hacker journey, if if that is still what you consider yourself to be takes you in the future. And thanks for building all of these things in public. You're a role model to a lot of us.
Peter So thank, man. This honor to hear, man. For night.
n/a (and been a pleasure. Thanks for being on the show.
Peter Thank you for having me.
n/a And that's it for today. Peter mentioned that he'd be open to sell his Ai businesses eventually. And I know just the right place for him to list those businesses. I will (and briefly thank my sponsor for today acquired dot com. Imagine this, and it's not gonna be hard, because Peter just talked about this the whole time.
n/a You're a founder who's built a really solid saas product. You acquired massive amounts of customers you're getting consistent monthly recurring revenue. That's the Saas stream as explained and evidenced by Peter's Ai tools. The problem is. You're not growing for whatever reason, maybe lack a focus, lack of skill, lack of interest, and you just feel stuck in your business and with your business.
n/a In Peter's case, it's really the unaware of where things are gonna go. Right? Is the stuff still gonna be around in a couple months? Can I still run this business by myself or should somebody take over? While the story here at this point, in many cases, is that people would love to hear that you buckle down, reign united the fire.
n/a You work on the business, not just in the business. You build an audience and you mark and do sales and outreach growers team (and whatever, 6 months down the road, people would love to hear that you made all that money. Right? You tripled your revenue. You've built this hyper successful business.
n/a But reality is unfortunately not as simple as this. And the situation that you might find yourself in, might be very different. And every farmer is facing this cross road in a different way. But too many times, the story that follows is the same. It ends up being 1 of inaction (and stag segmentation, until your business itself becomes less and less valuable over time or worse completely worthless.
n/a So if you find yourself here already, Will you think that your personal story is likely headed down a similar road, I would consider a third option, and that's selling your business on acquired dot com. Because capitalizing on the value of your time today, is a pretty smart move. It's the only time you have. Acquired dot com is free to list. They've helped hundreds of foreigners already.
n/a So go to tri dot acquire dot com slash r and see for yourself if this is the right option for you and your business right now. Thank you so much for listening to the Boots (and today. You can find me on Twitter at Abu khan (and. If find my books are my Twitter course there too. And if you wanna support me (and the show, please subscribe to my Youtube channel, that would be really appreciated.
n/a Just Get and read the podcast in your podcast player of choice and leave a rating and a review by going to rate this podcast dot com slash founder. It really makes a massive difference for me. Because if you show up there and rate and review, then the podcast will show up in other people's feeds, and that just means more people get to learn from people like Peter today. Any of this will help to show. Thank you so much for listening.
n/a Have a wonderful day and bye bye.