Summary Piers Morgan vs Ben Shapiro On Israel-Hamas War | The Full Interview (Youtube) youtu.be
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n/a Good evening, London. Welcome to Piers on sensitive 5 days ago, terrorists from Hamas attacked Israel. They murdered and rape civilians. They executed the elderly bus stops. They're are babies and holocaust survivors as hostages and they massacred young people at a festival.
n/a They may an emerged last night, they've we've even beheaded babies in 1 village. More than 1200 Israelis and now believed to have died. And this brutal attack has dragged Israel into war. Israel every right to respond with force as it's done. The death toll Gaza is now more than a thousand and many more will die.
n/a Many of those will be completely innocent people. Like those who died in Math attacks. Like almost everyone, I've been shocked and sick of the stories and videos emerging from the attack, have also been stunned by the moral coward of those who celebrated terror as resistance and brutality as politics. I've called out that people who've confirmed a terror attack with a geopolitical debate, and I've spoken to Fair minded people on both sides of that debate. I've done this as a journalist and a human being, but with no personal skin in the game.
n/a My guess tonight on the other hand 1 of the most prominent and influential Jewish comment. On the planet, ben Shapiro has been visibly moved and enraged by the tragedies unfolding in Israel. And the world has paid attention to analysis. It's I'm giving The so to him, as we tackle all the big questions that have come out of this? What is a proportionate response to terrorism?
n/a Should the United States be more involved? How do we move forward? Everyone involves these the other side as an oppressive or a savage? Wise Ben Shapiro joins me now. Ben, great to have you on the program.
n/a I wish it was under different circumstances. I wanna ask you first of all, Where were you when you first heard about these attacks?
Ben Shapiro So I'd been in Israel for several weeks and we just gotten home to to the United States on Friday morning. Friday night obviously is sabbath for for Orthodox shoes. And it will it also happened to be 1 of the biggest laboratory days of the year. Shame Was AA2 day, what we call Y, which means no electricity, really, you can't use your phone. You can't use your computer.
Ben Shapiro My security team showed up at Synagogue on Saturday morning and started informing me of what had happened and then news was was kind of bleeding through throughout the day. There are various sources. You know, Maids who are leaving Tvs on, for example, or my security team informing me throughout the weekend of what exactly was happening because of the serious security concerns that arise for Jews all over the planet when there's mass terrorist attack in Israel or or anywhere else. And and so, you know, we are finding out in a lag to time, what exactly was happening Obviously, we couldn't watch the videos. We can see exactly what was happening until it came back online on Sunday night and were hit with the news that at that 0.7 hundred jews have been murdered today.
Ben Shapiro A number is... Has been total to well over 1200 Jews have been murdered in in Israel, we start to see all of the pictures on our Tvs. I obviously because I'm in touch with with a lot of people on the ground, first responders, people on the ground in Israel. I started receiving extraordinary levels of of footage and and video and audio and and pictures of what exactly had happened in these places and Yeah. I mean, these are these are images.
Ben Shapiro I've I've been trying to show them to the audience for from 1 very specific reason. And that specific reason is to to to to understand what evil is you have to look in the face of evil. And I I think that you we in the west have a a peculiar na ism that we... Everyone thinks like we do, that we value children a certain. So everyone values children in a certain way.
Ben Shapiro That that if somebody does something truly terrible or evil, it must be that there was something that quote unquote drove them, that it must be a policy question. But as it turns out that that is not the case, because there's literally nothing. I think there's that could drive people. In in the West a normal person to go and to murder baby in their crib in in a civilian area. To simply walk in and gun down grandmothers or to rape a woman and drag her back to the Gaza strip.
Ben Shapiro What could drive you to do that? I can't think of anything that would driving me to do. But there are a lot of people not only driven to do that, but believe full well on the virtue of of what they're doing. That is a different mode of thought and that is not something you can negotiate with.
n/a You've seemed about this for completely understandable reasons to have been more enraged and I think I've ever seen you, almost like a simmering volcano as you've talked about this. I want to play a clip from your daily Wire Youtube channel, you have 6000000 subscribers. And this is part of what was I thought a very powerful address that you made there.
Ben Shapiro I I'm am a jew. Those have been the words of the Jewish people for 3 millennia. Those were the words of the men, women and children of Masa. Those were the words of the followers of Bar. Those were the words of Jews and G granada in 10 66 and the Rhine in 10 96 and Ham, from 16 48 to 16 57 and K 19 o 3 and Have grown in 19 29.
Ben Shapiro Those were the words of Jews in auschwitz and T. Those were the last words of Daniel Pearl. And those are my words too. They're are the words of my parents, the words my wife. My children, over the weekend, my people, the Jewish people were attacked, and murdered, mutilated, our women were raped, our children were kidnapped.
Ben Shapiro This happened millions of times before to millions of Jews across history. Jewish hatred exists. Because evil exist, because there are people who have for literally all of human history, hated the Jews and start to strike at them, while they are weak, Who have Blamed The Jews For Their Own Problems. Who Crafted Complex Conspiracy Theories About The Power Of The Jews Who have Sought To Destroy To Murder Mu To Rape The Jews. From Ph to Ham from Hitler to Hamas.
n/a What what reaction have you had to that Ben?
Ben Shapiro I think the reaction has been pretty strong and and overwhelmingly positive. I think there are there are a lot of people not only Jews, mostly my audiences, people who are not jewish obviously who who understand the history of the Jewish people who understand what it means when when the greatest slaughter of Jews on a mass scale happens since the holocaust and and who understand that it is in linked to a history of anti antisemitism that goes back thousands of years. I mean, this extermination level anti antisemitism, what you see from hamas. It's literally part of their charter. And so the attempt to to treat them as a normal political body obviously is foolish.
Ben Shapiro I think that a lot of people resonated to that. It's this certainly the strongest I felt about and anything that's... Happened in my lifetime since 09:11 as an American since 09:11. And as a jew, obviously, I I'm watching as people that I know people I'm friends with are getting calls up to go to the military and serve in Gaza try to protect the the Israeli citizenry who are our Jews and Arabs who are Christians and Jews and Muslims are And and, you know, I'm watching as you know, there there are people out there who are rallying on behalf of of Actual terrorist groups murdering children. I mean, it's amazing.
Ben Shapiro Is it amazing, I would say exposure of of ignorance at at at best. Ignorance at best and you hatred at worse?
n/a Do you have any personal connection to anyone who's whose life has taken?
Ben Shapiro I don't. I'm I'm I'm lucky. I would say that I I have... Certainly, I know a lot of people who do. So the way to to talk about the Jewish community in general, They're not very many jews on the planet.
Ben Shapiro Due to conspiracy theories, people tend to think there tens of millions of jews on the planet. The the grand total number of jews on planet Earth about 15000000. About 7000000 who live in the state of Israel, about 6000000 who live in the United States. And what that means is that in general society, you think, you know, 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon, with 7 degrees of of connection, you can find anyone I in among among Jews that that's 1. That number is 1.
Ben Shapiro So I I certainly know an an enormous number of people who who have had people who are kidnapped, had people who are murdered. I certainly no personally a enormous number of people on the ground right now. I know Americans who are who are in Israel with me who decided to stay over the last day of the Ohm over the over the holiday today. And ended up basically getting stuck there because the the airport was shut down these rocket attacks and and when the call went out to everybody with medical training to to show up to to help. I know American doctors who showed up at the guys border to simply set up triage stations and help people.
Ben Shapiro So I mean, it is it's a very small community very close in that community obviously.
n/a You've spoken a lot about Hamas before called them Evil. You did a second video called make God revenge. Their blood In which you said that hamas in some ways, they are worse than Nazis, which some viewed a very provocative statement. Why did you say that about them?
Ben Shapiro Then the nazis. I mean, here's the phrase I'll remember use again, at least the Nazis. So at at least the Nazis attempted to hide their crimes. So so now obviously mechanized death, they had a scrap group in units that that drove up to to Jewish Villages and would mow people down. And then they bury them, and then they try to hide the crimes, and it took, you know, the nerve team years to to un undo all of that material.
Ben Shapiro In this particular case, you have hamas cameras we're murdering cheese their beds and live streaming it and and celebrating it and bragging about it and and talking about how incredible it is. And asking that sort of stuff out. I mean, the videos that I've been showing on my show. A lot of them are coming directly from Hamas. I mean, it's hamas that is taking tempering his video of this sort of stuff.
Ben Shapiro And that that's a whole new level of evil. I mean, that the to to celebrate this sort of stuff to treat as a triumph. I mean, I think the thing that that that people really have to realize is this is not a military operation Mh. This was not a military operation. I mean, people have compared this to for example, the 19 73 young kip poor wore.
Ben Shapiro That was an awful moment in israel's history when was taken by surprise by the combined arab of armies around it. But that was a military operation with a military objective, which was deceased terror. This is not a military operation with a military objective. This was this is an operation directed specifically at civilians. And and when we see death and Gaza, Corey we're going to see in the are gonna be horrifying and terrible.
Ben Shapiro It is important to understand that the reason that is happening is not just because Crossed the border and murdered a bunch of civilians in their beds, but also because Ka literally hides its weaponry behind civilians. Israel is currently right now sending out messages, 2 Gaza and civilians telling them to get... Out of particular areas and Hamas is sending out full scale messages, telling people to ignore those messages and to stay where they are. Hamas is is they there's reason why their headquarters were for years located underneath a hospital. I mean, it's the the...
Ben Shapiro What what they what they they understand. That the West again, has it the peculiar na is where we think we would never put our our military high below a hospital? That'd be insane. And so if Israel blows up a hospital must be that Israel's doing that because they're targeting civilians. K hamas knows that.
Ben Shapiro That's that's why they're doing it. That's why they're doing it. They literally hide the rocket launchers behind apartment buildings in the hope. That Israel will strike back and have to kill civilians in the process. Israel cares significantly more about civilian casualties in Gaza than Hamas ever has.
n/a 1 of the I mean there have been so many horrendous images and videos, the poor girl from the music festival. Taken away on the motorbike was just bone chilling to watch. I saw something else cnn in yesterday there with Jake Tap interviewing the relative of a grandmother his grandmother, who was murdered and Hamas posted the video of her being murdered, onto her Facebook page, so her family would watch it. I mean, when you hear that, it's sort of un unreasonable. It's it's kind of beyond to privacy.
n/a This is in humanity.
Ben Shapiro I mean, peers, you're in the business of words and I'm in the business of words and I've found myself repeatedly over the last few days unable to to find words to describe the kind of thing that we're seeing. And then again, we we stretch I think in the west and eye stretch in America. And we I think we all stretch to try and find you know, what would drive somebody to do something like this? And the answer sometimes is that they are just... They're...
Ben Shapiro I don't know how to say this otherwise. They are not like you. Hamas is not like you. They don't think like you. They don't have the same priorities as you.
Ben Shapiro They don't have the same values as you. And that means that any attempt to buy them off is is bound to fail. And this is in intertwined with the history. The fact is, Israel turned over the Gaza strip. In 2005, there were no jews living in the Gaza strip since 2005, the areas that were attacked in this particular terrorist attack.
Ben Shapiro Are not in areas that are in the so called settlements. The S. In J Area what's called the West Bank. That that... That's not the area that was attacked.
Ben Shapiro The areas that was attacked has been sovereign in Israeli territory since 19 47 48, and and that territory was attacked from a across a border that is entirely controlled by Hamas which has utilized pretty much every dollar that has that has flooded into that region over the course of 20 years from America from Europe taxpayer dollars that have been used to build up these terror capabilities. Every time their cement shipments into the the area of rule back, composites used it to build tunnels, pipes have been sent into, in the area ruled by hamas that were meant to build sewage systems have been repurposed and used for for rocket tubes. I mean, this is this is in... It's it's utterly insane to to try and come up with some sort of territorial solution. This is really just a territorial dispute.
Ben Shapiro It is not an a territorial dispute. It is is a genocidal group. That makes clear tone intention. I know how many times people have to tell you who they are before we believe them. The reason that I've been saying that, Hamas genocidal for literally minds...
Ben Shapiro Tar careers is because they say in their own founding documents they are genocide I. It it's it it's not as though. They're attempting to avoid couple responsibility for this They are saying it out loud. They're begging you to take them seriously also
n/a And they're they're also terrorists. I mean, let's just be crystal clear. This is totally an act terrorism that we saw at the weekend. The worst since 09:11, 1 of the worst terror attacks in modern history. And yet you have Mainstream media the Bbc in Britain, refusing to describe Hamas as terrorist, They call them militants.
n/a Even John Simpson, 1 of their senior, foreign correspondence and editors. So it's not a journalist role to call groups like Hamas terrorists. He says calling someone a terrorist means you're taking sides, and ce to treat the situation with due impartial. The Bbc c's job is to place the facts before his audience and that then decide what they think honestly without ranting. That's why In Britain throughout the world nearly half a billion watch listen to and readers.
n/a There's always somebody like us to rant. Sorry, it's not what we do, but I don't think it's about ranting. To describe acts of terror as being committed by terrorists. And the New York Times apparently today actually changed the wording of a story they they put online and change the word hamas terrorists to Hamas Gunmen. As if they're almost terrified, you know, literally, I mean how ironic of using the word terrorists, but what is it about mainstream media to huge examples of it.
n/a New York Times and the B, that they won't just call this what it is.
Ben Shapiro I think that that a lot of these groups. Are afraid of the political implications of of just calling a terrorist terrorist. I mean, when when you acknowledge that the government of of the Gaza strip is in fact, a terrorist government, that has some pretty large scale implications for a lot of the political agendas it played because of course, the the great sort of dream of of the west since at least the Oslo courts has been that territorial sessions and that economic concessions would would solve this problem. And when it turns out that an entire area is governed by a a government that is in fact a terror government. Is it Actual Terrorist Group.
Ben Shapiro Then That Has some pretty significant implications moving forward for The prospects in the Region and it also suggests government that Israel has a moral duty, which it absolutely does to protect its own citizenry by that terrorist group from the planet. And the word terrorist has a definition. And that definition by any stretch of the imagination is fulfilled by by what Ka hamas is. I mean, the Bbc explanation is so bizarre. It's almost like suggesting.
Ben Shapiro That if you found a a man who had murdered his wife in an apartment, and you reported on that. You didn't call it murder. You said that some... Someone was killed. A person was killed.
Ben Shapiro And and and the person's convicted of murder and you still said they're not a mere... We we we don't make judgments over here and use language, like the word murderer because that would... Carries some moral implication. Well, yes. It turns out that murdering entire families, slaughtering entire families burning them.
Ben Shapiro I mean, some of the stuff that I've been that I've been tweeting out, which stuff I'm getting again, directly from first responders on the ground. I mean just a few moments ago. I tweet. I wish I didn't have to tweet out these photos, but I think people need to understand the consequences. Stuff of failing to see evil for what it is.
Ben Shapiro It was it was a photo of some group of people in in a Ka called Ka kombucha, which is again near the border where a hundred bodies were found. They were attempting to simply escape and Hamas stop the car, and burn bring these people alive. And I don't know how you don't call that and what other goal could you have habit to obscure the morality in the situation. If you refuse to call things what what they are. I don't...
Ben Shapiro It's it bog the mind. It really... It
n/a Would also bog the mind for me was Black lives matter, Chicago, which had a Twitter account with 60000 followers. They actually posted a car ass image of a para glider saying I stand with Palestine. The para is for the cause all the ones who flew in. And killed all the people at the music festival. What did you feel when you saw that?
Ben Shapiro I mean, unsurprisingly only in the sense that Black lives matter as a as an organization had all sorts of solidarity statements about Palestine going all the way back to the the original movement into thousand 14, 2015. But the but seeing them actively take up the the imagery of an actual terrorist attack. That's what that is. Palestinians are not famous for their for their hang handwriting, Thousand the only reason why that is the image is because literal terrorists use para ladders in order to murder civilians and electronic dance music festival. By the way, attended mostly by people of the political left.
Ben Shapiro I mean, those are not right wing Israelis or Dan in Dd festival on on a Saturday. That's not the width that works. It's it's only astonishing in in either the moral blindness or the anti antisemitism. And at a certain point, the moral blindness becomes the anti antisemitism because when you are celebrating active gym murder, and you are saying that that's solidarity, that that's a pretty incredible thing. I'd also like to point out here that the argument in favor of Palestinian self determination, did not need to be threatened by any of these people.
Ben Shapiro All they could have said is Hamas does not represent Palestinians. This does not have any implications for Palestinian self determination, Hamas is a terrorist group and they ought to be, and they ought to be replaced by better government that could make pieces of the way. None of this is particularly hard. The fact that they're are lump together. Hamas with the Palestinian claude it says an awful lot and doesn't say anything good.
n/a In 1 of the videos, you say the only solution is that Israel to Annex the gaza strip and kill enough. Sons of bitches to make sure this isn't a problem again. You say anyone who calls fire is a terrorist under these circumstances. Isn't that got a lot of pushback. I guess this comes to the point of appropriate response, how far do you go?
n/a How do you isolate? Genuine Hamas from perhaps completely innocent Palestinians in Gaza, which there will be many. 1 person called you a genocidal warm for that rhetoric. And there's AAA person called Mohammed, Hi Been a video called in responding to Ben in israel. He says this.
Speaker 2 First and foremost, I'll say, yes, we condemn. Any woman, child or whatever it may be that's being killed who's Jewish and is not non. But why is it the case Ben? Why is it the case that you? None of your colleagues or you have been able to offer 1 single condolences, 1 single condemnation, 1 single word of sympathy for any of the gardens that have been killed.
Speaker 2 Don't try smear us. Don't try and sla their us. Don't try and attack, not try and produce red earrings. And I think you're an ass a jackass ass. And we're not talking about Ham hamas.
Speaker 2 We're talking about children here. Talking about women here. We're talking about elderly people. You make me sick. You make me sick.
n/a What's your response to that, Ben? That will be I'm sure a reaction you've have heard from a lot of people. What do you feel about that?
Ben Shapiro I mean, my obvious responses is, of course, I feel horrible for the people who are being held by Ka hamas in a state of tyranny for the past 15 years, hamas was the elected government in Gaza in 2006. There hasn't been an election since then. All the people who are who are today ranting As as you heard Mah mohammed, Hi job doing Right? There. I don't hear them talking about liberating Gaza from Hamas, which is the greatest threat to the to the way of life of Gaza on planet Earth.
Ben Shapiro Again, I I've nothing but sympathy for Hamas for for the people at Hamas is is governing or the people that Come hamas is exploiting really. I have nothing but sympathy for civilians there, Israel has to defend itself. I don't understand exactly what the expectation would be here. Is is the expectation that because K hamas uses human shields. That Israel therefore has to go home and wait to be to to have its people murdered again.
Ben Shapiro Israel tried it The way that that Muhammad And others would like. Israel literally pulled in 2005. They literally pulled thousands of Jews. Out of the Gaza strip is called the dis engagement, and it was massively unpopular in wide swath of Israel. They they pulled out they built a wall and they basically said, go ahead and govern yourselves out and this is the result of that.
Ben Shapiro You think israel. You think I you think anyone in Israel, no 1 in Israel. Wants to re occupied got a strip. No 1. That's why Israel has been studio avoiding re occupying the gaza strip since 2006, despite the fact that they've have been living ground in large parts of Israel for weeks at a time.
Ben Shapiro Rocket attacks that been fired on a regular basis from the Gaza strip into major cities.
n/a Let me ask
Ben Shapiro you Let me ask alone.
n/a In gaza you have. 2000000 people, many of whom are young people, pretty hopeless conditions to live in, I think people would agree with that, not much chance of getting out of there, they live in very densely populated areas. We know from in the last 24 hours, the Israel controls water, controls, energy, power going in there. Many would see that that is a control that Israel shouldn't have. If you want to afford equal rights to people living in in Gaza.
n/a And then it comes down to proportionate response and how you try, like I say, how do you How do you attack hamas given they're all over Gaza, living amongst the general population? How do you attack and isolate genuine, members of Hamas, genuine terrorists. From the civilian population. And given that is almost impossible, clearly, What Is A Proportionate Response to What's happened Here?
Ben Shapiro Well, Frankly, Don't Believe in Proportionate Response to Terrorism I Believe that Way that you Stop Terrorism Is With Wildly disproportionate response. Doesn't mean in terms of targeting civilians, means in terms of killing as many terrorists as humanly possible and allowing them to dictate the terms of engagement by hiding behind, that Civilians in areas that that they're are supposedly responsible for means that The only option for Israel is just surrendered To Hamas hatred of its own citizens. It's willingness to use its own children as human shields. No no country worth its salt could ever do that. No, no government, trying to protect own citizens could that.
Ben Shapiro What exactly is the alternative option other than for Israel to try to kill as many of these terrorists into post and hopefully, help put in place some sort of international overseeing community? Would actually govern the Gaza strip in a in a rational reasonable way that actually maximized the possibilities of its citizens is relevant in the course of the last year Allowed Him 15000 More Permits To Gaza. Many Of those Work Permits Were Now Finding Out Were Used By terrorists in Order Across The Border. The Fact Israel controls the water and the power The reason that Israel controls the water and the is specifically because if they did not control the water and the power. Ka would be right now hold up with the water and the power, they Indefinitely, Mean, the fact is that the reason that Israel controls for example, the Sea border is because if they did not, there were attempts to ship weapons in from Turkey, multiple times.
Ben Shapiro The the the impossible situation in which Israel finds itself. With regard to the Gaza strip is mirrored only by the impossible situation which in which Ga and civilians find themselves and all of that, every single iota of that is the result of hamas, which means unless there's a change in status, in which Hamas is removed from power in which someone else is put in charge. This is going to continue.
n/a Again. I would you. I would 20000
Ben Shapiro hyundai die to the right defend their citizens.
n/a I agree with you, but I would also say that I think that it would also benefit any chance of a peace settlement, that if Netanyahu wasn't in charge anymore. I mean, apart for anything else, this is an unbelievable breach and failure of of security and military. I think part of that can be app portion. To the extraordinary social unrest that's been developing Israel since his cabinet, full of a lot of right wing he bang, Frank some of whom have called themselves fascist have tried to take on the judiciary and Supreme Court. I don't feel comfortable about that.
n/a What do you feel about that? And do you feel that Netanyahu is the right person? Shit does it need a completely clean leadership now, both in Palestine? And Israel to try and get to somewhere approaching peace.
Ben Shapiro The Democratic elected government Israel has not had a change in policy despite the fact that until very recently now Not the Prime minister of Israel, it was a Joint Government Run by Na taliban Bennett as well As By Y Lap, Who's a member of the Hard Left Who Dramatically opposes. Benjamin netanyahu today, they formed a Unity government between Benny Gon who's a member of the center left, and Benjamin netanyahu, who's a member of the center right, we could party. In Israel, This is not when it comes to foreign policy. The reality is that since the rejection of any peace deal by Mah abbas in 2009. When A there was the prime minister of israel, there's been very little disagreement between any of the parties.
Ben Shapiro With regard to foreign policy because they do not have a peace partner The Oslo process was killed by the Palestinians and it was killed by the Palestinians when they rejected multiple peace offerings by a by Ariel Sharon, by a Ul. Over and over and over again Bean by Shi Perez. Benjamin Netanyahu himself in the white River accord in 19 98, handed over significant portions of the West Bank. To the Palestinians. So you can say that Netanyahu a problem.
Ben Shapiro That's fine. But the reality
n/a I was really asking. I was asking whether you feel... Here's is a problem that actually all the division that's been caused by his attempt to you insert the power of the Supreme court as many people see it. All that division in Israel has actually diminished his authority. And that it's come at a time, when you really need somebody with real authority.
Ben Shapiro Well, Mean, I I don't think that right now that's really the question. Considering again, it's a unity government, and I'm talking to everybody in Israel. All of those divisions heal up in a moment when your children are being slaughtered at the borders turns out. So, you know, all of the judicial reform conversation is a separate conversation, we can critique and how fast they went in terms of this coalition. They went too fast.
Ben Shapiro They scaled it back. There were serious divisions in Israeli society about what kind of power the judiciary ought to have. There are many people, On both sides actually who believe the Judiciary had too much power, There are a lot of people on both sides who believe the government went too fast on that, internal political divisions have become completely irrelevant here. If if Netanyahu were replaced tomorrow about any gods, which is what a lot of Israelis would hope for. If if that were to happen, literally tomorrow, nothing would change.
Ben Shapiro Nothing would change. And the reason nothing would change is because again, this is an issue, This particular issue is about hamas. This has nothing to do with the constituency of the Israeli government. You could find the most left wing person in in Israeli politics right now, which would be ariel lap repeat. You could put him back in the prime minister seat and he'd would be forced with exactly the same decisions.
Ben Shapiro Ben netanyahu is faced with right now.
n/a How do you see take me forward 20 years in a dream scenario. How does the region look?
Ben Shapiro In a dream scenario economic development, which I think is what the Accord were about and what the burg drinks Piece deal was about And by the way, the Burg Saudi Piece deal Is the reason that Ka hamas did this at the Be Of Iran. They're afraid of a regional realign that would create A sun Jewish alliance. Right. Oriented largely against the the the Shi Power of Iran, which is spread through Lebanon Syria and now down into into. The the you know, the the economic development is the only way to move forward for the region.
Ben Shapiro That was the premise of Accord. Again, it was the premise of the the nascent Saudi piece deal. Israel would love to do that with the Palestinian authority. They would love to do that with with anyone governing the Palestinians to provide better economic conditions. 1 of the great irony of all, this is the 20 percent of israel's population is Arab.
Ben Shapiro The the Arabs in Israel earn a far better income. They they have far better Gdp, per capita. And then arabs who are living under the palestinian senate Authority under the Gaza or under the... Or under Hamas. And when you take polls of Israeli arabs, many of whom are not particularly fond of the state of Israel, almost 0 of them wish to actually relocate to any of these areas because economic development is economic development.
Ben Shapiro The the way out of this is that but in order for that to happen, the people on the other side of the table have to actually agree that economic development is a worthwhile thing is an end goal, and this goes back to the original point that I was making is that We and the west. We believe the economic development, worthwhile. And what we are all seeking is the same sort of peaceful, decent life where we leave each other alone, gets to live our lives. I think that we all we all agree on that. But there's a group of people who absolutely do not agree with.
Ben Shapiro They don't care about the level of economic development. They would rather live. I mean, hamas would rather that its own citizens live in poverty and Pen and orient themselves against the extermination of the Jews, then that economic development even be allowed to take place. I mean, do know 1II promise you everyone in the Israeli government right to left, would love nothing better than economic development of the people surrounding them, so they don't have to send their sons and daughters to go fight and die in Gaza.
n/a Do you believe in the concept of a 2 state solution?
Ben Shapiro I mean, if there were a party on the other side to negotiate with. And if there if the if the Possibility of a 2 State Solution Was Real, Sure. Mean That But the question Is, How Realistic Is That Negotiations Cannot Be The The The Cure All. You Can't you have to have a partner on the other side of the table The entire premise of the Oslo cords that you could take an actual terrorist by the Mb or R artifact. You could you could negotiate with them.
Ben Shapiro Can make a deal with him. And this would magically cure the situation. Well, a deal is not capable of being cut with with literally anyone. That's not the way any of this works. So in order for there to be any sort of long term peace, including a Palestinian state, there would have to be a complete difference in in leadership in in these areas, and that would actually require Palestinian Moderates to take the floor.
Ben Shapiro The Palestinian Authority is not 8 is not a moderate group is Islamic Ji. Is a terrorist group Hamas is a terrorist group. Palestinian And until that that changes, nothing's going to change. And by the way, there is the possibility of that change. If you had told me 10 years ago, that there would be Saudi Israeli normalization on the table.
Ben Shapiro Have laughed in your face. If you told me that Israel would have been able to cut piece deals with the Uae and with Morocco, I Would have I would have gone. And I think everyone would have cost. So there is that possibility. But Cannot not make peace with they decide that once you murder you That is not a possibility.
n/a Well, on that point, all I would say to that is I'm an Irish catholic. And we had the troubles in Northern Ireland. Different circumstances, I'm not gonna try and equate the 2. But there you had people on both sides trying to kill each other. You had the Ira trying to kill civilians ind to make their political points.
n/a And in the end of peace deal was achieved, but it was achieved by people sitting down opposite people, they knew had been killing civilians and killing people on their side. You even had the queen meeting Martin Mc and Jerry Adams, who were the in Mc case, the former a chief of staff of the Ira. You ordered, some of the most appalling atrocities, the Queen 1 of her own relatives was blown to pieces. Lord Bat by the Ira, but she's still met with them. I was actually at number 10 downing treatment, Tony Blair met Mc adams on the steps for the first time in in 70 years as the members of Shi fe.
n/a And shook their hands. I was next into him in his office, and it was an extraordinary moment to watch. And it was a moment Many people thought would never happen Do you see any parallel there in terms of what could be achieved with israel and Palestine?
Ben Shapiro Only if the leadership changes. Only if the leadership changes on the Palestinian Side. That is the only way that happens. And again, the the the difference here is that the Ira had territorial ambitions. Hamas does not have territorial.
Ben Shapiro They've genocidal ambitions. The Palestinian authorities has been offered multiple deals over multiple decades, And they've rejected without counter offers, virtually every deal they have ever been offered. As islamic hot is a terrorist group. Again, if if the Ira was dedicated to the complete slaughter and era ratification. Of every non irish In the Uk?
Ben Shapiro That would be the equivalent to Hamas. And that would not be a negotiating position? Because again, could there be successful negotiations with it depends on... It depends on the partner. Right.
Ben Shapiro And that the example that you're using is is the best example of size that are incredibly far apart coming together. But here we are talking about 1 side, that simple premise. If Israel put down all of its guns tomorrow, every jew in the region would be slaughtered. If Hamas put down all of its guns tomorrow, Israel would leave the Gaza trip alone. It is that simple.
n/a Let me ask you got into a Twitter spat with Andrew Tate yesterday. And he's a converted Muslim. He'd been doing a lot of supportive tweets for the Palestinians. And he tweeted at at 1 stage, Mister. Tough guy.
n/a Let me assure you with someone who's done his own fighting as opposed to excited encouraging others to do it for him while sitting at home on a comfy chair, Peace is always worth a conversation. What what does that spat about? Why did you engage with him? What do you feel about that?
Ben Shapiro Well, what I feel about that is that who's tweeting that immediately, like, as terrorists were still running around in Southern Israel. That was on October tenth. And he's still tweeted. While The Bodies were Fresh and warm in the Streets. Pieces that You Cannot Make peace With People Who murder Hurts Children and Burn Their bodies.
Ben Shapiro You can't Do That. I Mean, That this this Rush to Israel The Mayor happens, He you immediately say, okay. Guys, Now. Now Truth. Now sees Fire.
Ben Shapiro That is not no state worth its itself. No government on earth would allow the this kind of insanity. No government on earth. And no government on Earth. Would listen to nonsense about on how you immediately have to seek peace with the group that seeks your direct extermination.
Ben Shapiro I again can't I I can't tell as enough. Israel turned over the Gaza strip 2 gl in 2005. Tomas hamas has governed the area since 2006. The year is currently 2023. Israel has has in endured round after round of rocket fire on its major cities for literally almost 20 years.
Ben Shapiro And now the idea is the minute that gaza the the gaza terrorists rushed through the border and merge people in their beds. That's that's the time for peace conversation. That's the time for peace
n/a conversation say.
Ben Shapiro By the way, and I'm not gonna be lecture on morality and tough by by Andrew tate. Whose great idea of tough and morality is pi women and then bragging about it on air. And and Trying to quasi walk at apple while simultaneously maintaining many of the same positions and flexing his biceps.
n/a Yeah I mean he's still a huge following as he knows. Especially online. Is it is it dangerous? Is it reckless that he's able to tweet from house arrest still? Of course, in Romania, that he can tweet on something like this and have the kind of influence that he has.
Ben Shapiro Was everyone should be able to... Whatever it is that they want them all for an open discourse even with people who I think are dead wrong on a lot of these issues. But Annotate is dead wrong on a lot of these issues and and the the particularly tweet ridiculous post about being a yes. You're very... Yes.
Ben Shapiro You're very tough. And when you want people to make peace with with terrorists you just murdered their children. Very very tough.
n/a You mentioned Iran earlier, president Biden yesterday came out 10 minute speech, sounded very tough. And very supportive of Israel, but never once mentioned Iran? Was that a failure by him? Or are they waiting to established concrete evidence of Iran's involvement.
Ben Shapiro So I think there's a good reason he could have done that in a be bad reason that he could have done that. And the the bad reason is pretty obvious, which is that... The United States has un frozen 6000000000 dollars in assets to to flood into Iran in return for hostages. That money is fungi, and there's every possibility that money... Flowing into Iran since since the weakening of sanctions has contributed to Iran's spread of terror that is not only a possibility that's for probability and everyone knows it.
Ben Shapiro So flowing you avoid mentioning Iran then presumably it avoids blow. That is the bad reason. The good reason might be that the United States wants to take down the temperature in the region. So right now, geopolitical, this is a contained conflict. This is Israel versus Hamas in the Gaza strip and everyone of good heart on every side, should hope that it remains though.
Ben Shapiro Way. If Hezbollah, which is on Israel's Northern Border and an Iranian client, Hezbollah is a massive and significantly more powerful than Terrorist group that exists and and has way say in the government of Lebanon. Again, israel's surrounded on a lot of sides by terrorist groups than mas greatest government Hezbollah has about a hundred and 50000 much more sophisticated rockets than than Hamas appointed at Northern Israel, Everyone understands that if Hezbollah which would only do this at the Past of Iran. If Hezbollah were to get in. Israel would then be stretched mil to the point where they would not have any choice to go full force.
Ben Shapiro And what that means is that all of the talk right now about the the supposed disproportionate force that Israel really is using in the Gaza strip, talk with which I wildly disagree. That that will all go out the window because once you are stretched to the point of extermination, all bets are off. And and the israeli air force will have to be unleashed on the on the southern border. Lebanon. At that point, you would have to imagine that That Bashar assad in Syria starts to get active.
Ben Shapiro But Iran starts to get active. So 1 of the things that that the the possible good reason why he didn't mention Iran is because he's attempting to keep of iran out of the war. That basically the idea would be. He didn't say in the speech that any other group that wants to get in, don't America to its great credit to our great credit we've stationed a battle carrier, an aircraft carrier outside of outside of Lebanon in the Mediterranean and basically said hezbollah blog that they should not get in. We've that is in fact the the best available moves.
Ben Shapiro So again, there's a very plausible bad reason why he didn't mention Iran, which is to avoid the blow back from his own idiotic or on policy. And there's a possible good reason which is that he's attempting to avoid the broadening of the conflict.
n/a Donald Trump says as he's want to do with these crises that would never have happened. If he was president, do you think that may have some truth?
Ben Shapiro I think there's some truth to that. For sure. I think that that Iran has seen weakness. Iran on opportunity to to prevent the Saudi from coming into to the Abraham accord, And they thought that they could push where they saw mush. The withdrawal from Afghanistan Made America look weak, the continuous dealings between the United States and Iran's despite Iran's openly genocidal intentions with regards to Israel.
Ben Shapiro Mean has made America look weak. The fact that Robert Male, who is 1 of the chief negotiators for the United States was apparently c opted by Iranian Intelligence Groups. Makes the Americans look look particularly weak. And so appearance of weakness in the middle East matter an awful lot. It is it is not politics in Western states.
Ben Shapiro You know, where where we try to negotiate, we try to have discussions. That is not how politics works in the Middle East. It is a place where strength is is really the only point of the realm.
n/a There is a theory that Hamas have done this spectacularly awful act terrorism deliberately. On a scale that would goa Israel into over reacting and Spark met a much wider war.
Ben Shapiro I mean, I think that there's probably truth to that. I think that Hamas I answer what Ron wants. I'm not sure that Hamas wanted that. I think Hamas... Doesn't want to be wiped off the earth, which they probably will be in an ought be.
Ben Shapiro But I think that that Iran's hope was that Israel would have to go in incredibly strongly as the god a stir and this would provide internal pressure in Saudi Arabia be to prevent them from forming an alliance broker by the Americans with the Israelis. I think that that's probably the geopolitical reason for that. As with that said, that's not mean that Israel has any other choice. Again, if if if suddenly 1500 terrorists flooded into integrated Britain and proceeded to murder, 15000 to 20000 people because again, israel a tiny tiny country, has 9000000 people. If if those numbers were made proportionate, if if tens of thousands of people were slaughtered and Britain by a group of terrorists, I doubt there would be a lot of british citizens who are sitting around worrying about proportional or worrying about geopolitical consequence of protecting their own citizenry.
n/a There is a an interesting... Contradiction, I would argue that a lot of conservatives in America, lot of Republicans have including a number of presidential candidates from Ron Santos to Trump and others. They have signaled that they would want to severely curtail if not stop altogether, support for Ukraine and yet Ukraine was invaded by Russia. A lot of people saw to continue to be slaughtered. Is there not a contradiction there that these Republicans
Ben Shapiro Yes.
n/a Would be...
Ben Shapiro I mean.
n/a Some square behind Israel when it happens to them but not full square behind Ukraine.
Ben Shapiro I mean, yes, there's a contradiction. It depends on sort of what is being said about, Ukraine and it runs the gamut. Some of the candidates that you've talked about have talked about ending a completely ukraine. Some have talked about continuing a Ukraine and and pursuing some sort... Of of deal with the Russians that allows them to keep part of the Don Bass and Crimea, which I think is a completely different story and and is an actual off ramp.
Ben Shapiro But, yes, anybody who is who is you know sympathetic to Russia in the Russia Ukraine conflict, and then it's sympathetic Israel in this current conflict that that that is a a bizarre position to today. Again, I think they're serious America's a Sovereign country. It has own concerns that are not Israel's concerns and it has own concerns that are not Ukraine concerns, and those zone those zones always line up. But when it comes to you know, possible contradiction between a completely isolation is position on Ukraine, any and an intervention is position or a supportive position on Israel, Of course, those things could could clearly be in conflict. In my own position by the leon for what it's worth since...
Ben Shapiro Yeah, as you know, peers, I do this for a living. My own position on Ukraine has been. The United States should continue to supply. Ukraine with the support necessary in order to preserve its government and to preserve its territory. And meanwhile, they're need to be serious talks about what exactly an all looks like in your ukraine because virtually no 1 has spelled out exactly what that looks like and virtually no 1 believes at the point of the Ukraine is gonna be able to completely take back both the Don ba and and the Crimea region.
Ben Shapiro That that
n/a is not California To Ukraine an interviewed president Z. Met a lot of people there, and that was quite a while ago. There was an unbelievably be steel resolved. And I would say the same resolve that Israel has about. Seeding any land now to the Palestinians it's like they just don't want to give an inch of land away to the Russians.
n/a That was to a man and woman that I met out there.
Ben Shapiro An enormous amount of sympathy for that position. Again, that that that position does not necessarily dictate American policy anymore more than than Israel's position with regard to say the the so called occupied territories disputed territories should necessarily dictate an America's position on that. The They're they're realistic consequences and concerns to be had on foreign policy. But if the point that you're making is that lack of moral support in the invasion of a sovereign country by by Russia. Is in contradiction with moral support for Israel in this...
Ben Shapiro I I would say, yeah. I mean, there they're certainly in inconsistency there.
n/a I mean the other inconsistency in contradiction, it seems to me. Is the reaction of the world when George Floyd was murdered, which was a despicable killing and the police officer obviously concerned is now serving a life sentence quite rightly, but that sparked enormous global protests over America over the Uk everywhere, with people marching in protest what they perceive to be a racist murder. Of 1 person And yet the reaction within hours of what happened here where as we knew at the time, nearly a thousand people in Israel had been murdered. Some in the most utterly horrific circumstances. The reaction was that yes, there were big protests again.
n/a But they weren't really protest. They were Marches as a celebration in America in the Uk. They marched down my local high street, celebrating what had happened pro Palestinian marches? I found that extraordinary.
Ben Shapiro Hatred is a very real thing. It's a very real thing. And and we've obscured it with a lot of talk about zion and anti zion and we've scared it with a lot of talk about geopolitics and context. But in the end. J hatred is quite real.
Ben Shapiro And when you see crowds in city, chance and gas the Jews, not free the occupied territories not make a piece steel, gas the Jews. I'm not sure what we're supposed to read that other than people mean what they say when they say gas the Jews.
n/a Yeah. I mean, and that's exactly what they mean. I mean this is Nazi language. I mean, but as you say, the difference between this and The Nazis, the Nazis tried to keep the secret. Whereas this is all in plain sight.
n/a I mean, the idea of people doing this in cities like Sydney in London and New York, it's it's it's actually terrifying. And I say that again, I'm an Irish catholic. I'm not Jewish. I feel terrified for Jewish people. It says only 15000000 Jewish people in the world.
n/a It must be when this kind of thing happens in such an ind discrimination manner. It must be genuinely... Terrifying for people.
Ben Shapiro For sure. And obviously when you see Marches of support, it it the the question Has Always asked how could The holocaust have happened And the answer is... This way when people are are actively in favor of Jews being murdered simply for for being Jews. And again, it's easy people people have an amazing ability to to justify whatever it is that they're thinking or feeling at a given time. But if you can find a way to justify yourself out of the the murder.
Ben Shapiro Of babies in their crib. I I have a I have a hard time figuring that it's anything other than j hatred. And so if, you know, as a jew as a person who, you know, He's very strongly Jewish. I'm very active in my Jewish community. In a person with 4 kids and and a wife and parents and sisters and and all of this, you know, obviously, Jews feel like they are at risk everywhere because of of of this sort of activity.
Ben Shapiro And I will say there's an amazing double standard when it comes to. Anti antisemitism and it's treatment the media. The way that it seems to work in the media these days is is if a if if somebody politically says something about George So, then they will be labeled Nazi. And if somebody actually says I Am nazi. Then they will say, well, there's probably some sort of justification of our territorial disputes.
n/a Yes. I want to end Ben on 1 positive note and it's a montage we have of support for the Jewish people and for Israel. Take a look. Let's So bend that last image was of the Brandenburg gate, which of course, we saw back in the thirties with... Nazi Sw is all over it.
n/a And today the Israel flag is em bla across it proudly and supportive. I mean, amid all the dew hating and you're right. That's what it is. There's also been an amazing out pouring of support.
Ben Shapiro And that is incredible and we... Who are Jews obviously appreciate that. And I would just like to say at the very end here that it... That must be translated into allowing Israel to do what must be done to protect her own citizenry because goodwill only go so far as the actual protection of of human lives. And if Jews were to rely on the goodwill of the world over the course of history, it would gone very poorly for them That's why the state of israel exists.
Ben Shapiro It exists it never again, is never again. And in order for that to be a reality. The the Id f, state of israel has to be able to defend itself has to be able to defend its citizens protect them from the kind of slaughter and and savage that we saw over the weekend.
n/a Ben Shapiro. Thank you very much, Indeed. The for your time today I appreciate it.
Ben Shapiro Thank you.