Summary E138: Presidential Candidate Vivek Ramaswamy in conversation with the Besties - YouTube (Youtube) www.youtube.com
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Speaker 0 Sa, can you can you come outside your window and and I'm gonna start waiting and you see me. You wanna see me? Zach half
Speaker 1 2 of your butler hold? You up on their shoulders.
Speaker 2 I hope this is being taped and part of the show because this is great.
Speaker 3 David, you're wearing in Blue shorts. Right?
Speaker 4 Yeah.
Speaker 3 Yeah. I saw you. Did you see me?
Speaker 4 Not in see you. Where are you?
Speaker 0 When you look out on
Speaker 3 the first house, the pink house. Look at this house. You see it?
Speaker 4 I heard you. I couldn't see you though.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Y'all in like, a little chick.
Speaker 4 You're the pink house.
Speaker 3 Look I'm right below above me. No. I'm like, to your right, if you're looking out, I'm at your right, your purse house on the right.
Speaker 4 Oh, there. Oh, I see excuse me.
Speaker 1 Yeah. So see you.
Speaker 0 No I see you. I see you.
Speaker 1 Guys are like 12 year olds.
Speaker 3 Come over afterwards. We'll have a glass Okay.
Speaker 4 Alright. I'm come I'm gonna come over afterwards first.
Speaker 5 Vi has a hard stop, we should go.
Speaker 6 Let your winner inside. Rain man David scientist.
Speaker 1 Alright. Vi ram is finally on the program. He's an entrepreneur graduated Harvard. Yeah. All that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 He was an entrepreneur, then a capital all. I think Broad strokes everybody knows he's a conservative running as a Republican. He's anti woke, he's pro life, anti affirmative action, pro free speech. And he wants federal government term limits. And his fans are Luna.
Speaker 1 They've been asking for him to be on the all in podcast every day I've gotten about 300 emails from your fans welcome to the program.
Speaker 2 They sound like your fans, actually, because I hear it all the time it's like blaming me for why I have not been on this program and so you guys... This has been, like, some sort of ideal experience for me. I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 Okay. Great. So What we try to do here is have a real conversation, try to get these candidates off their talking points. So this isn't meet the press Obviously, We wanna talk to you like a human being. So the extent that, you know, as a politician now, you can talk like a human being, the audience and we would appreciate it.
Speaker 1 Meet David Sacks, Cha And David Freed, Vi vic. Why don't you explain maybe your background as a capital all and as an entrepreneur and then why you chose to run for president at this time. Right
Speaker 2 Yeah. Sure. I mean, my my parents like many people, you probably also know who had similar success stories. They came to this country with almost no money. I went on to actually found successful companies.
Speaker 2 And so I started my career as a biotech investor. I worked at a hedge fund in New York when I graduated in 2007. I thought I was gonna be a scientist. I studied molecular biology. Ended up enjoying my time as at an internship, hit had a hedge fund a lot more than that.
Speaker 2 So I did that for 7 years. 3, of those years, I spent law school at the same time, then when I finished law school, I had... You know, I think felt like my learning curve is flattened from b a pure capital all. But So I stepped down and founded a new kind of biotech company that I could... Actually, you guys might be more interested in than in it than most of my political audiences.
Speaker 2 But the basic premise was give scientists skin in the game in the projects they actually work on. So if you're Gs or advisor or whatever Merck. You discover a drug or you develop it, you don't have personal upside in the individual drug that you develop. You do have various forms of asymmetric downside. And so people don't take risks unless they're the same risks that the other pharma companies are taking because If you take the same risk and fail, but everybody else is failing in a therapeutic category at the same time you're save.
Speaker 2 But if you take a risk that other people aren't willing to take and you fail, Then you experience budget cuts, maybe job security risks, social embarrassment, which is a big factor in big pharma as well. Which in turn created an opportunity that I took advantage of, which was that there were systematically categories of drugs that went undeveloped Even after Big pharma ahead for a long time, spent a lot of money developing those drugs up to a certain point. So I build the business called Ro, basically, in licensed some of those drugs in their early stages of development, phase 1 or phase 2. Often for pennies on the dollar relative to what had gone into them. Often we would have scientists or drug developers who are passionate about that very project.
Speaker 2 Inside the companies, who would come with those drugs because they wanted to develop them, but the big pharma company said that they weren't in that area anymore. And we built a pipeline of such drugs. The whole plan was some of them would work. Some of them wouldn't. The successes would make up for the failures.
Speaker 2 And it's now a 10000000000 dollar public company and it returned unlike many private companies, you know, returned a billion dollars plus to shareholders before going public. And you know, is is doing... Continues to do well to this day. I led the company as Ceo for 7 years 5 of the drugs I worked on or Fda approved today. The 1 I'm probably most proud of is is a drug that affects your biologic that is life saving therapy in kids.
Speaker 2 Other one's an approved drug for prostate cancer, but that was my world. Is the point, Very different world. Maybe more similar to your guys world now than the world I'm in now. Something funny happened in 20 20, which was that in my own company, there were demands that I make a statement on behalf of Black Lives matter after the George Floyd. It was tragic death in May of 20 20, by June, there were demands that I start making statements on behalf of B.
Speaker 2 And it was a funny time because only starting that February, I had ventured into actually exercising my voice as a citizen while being a Ceo at my own peril, criticizing what was then the still new shiny objective of stakeholder capitalism. So I published this piece in the Wall street Journal had generated some waves that February, few months later in May, this George Floyd controversy comes up In the long story short, I can go into it if you guys are interested, but over the next 6 months, a series of escalating events led me to face a choice the following January. Of, you know, there's 3 advisors to my company that stepped down after I wrote a rather... I didn't intend to be, but a rather controversial piece in the Wall street Journal at the time. What was him The 1.
Speaker 2 Yeah. The premise of the piece was that In exxon controversial on numerous counts, but the basic premise was it was the first legal argument anybody had made, that if the government is pressuring a private actor, to do something that the government couldn't do directly, that that was still state action. Now, the subject is this was in the wake of January sixth, to where there was widespread systematic censorship of, you know, political speech in this country, at least I believe there was. And so the time I made that argument it was dismissed as a conspiracy theory on the fact, no. That's not happening.
Speaker 2 It was also dismissed as a legal theory, you know, this room who gonna happen to go to law school for Forgot his first year where... First amendment only applies to state actors, you know, now fast 4 3 years, 2 a half years. We now know those facts were far worse than even I envisioned at the time. And actually, the legal argument that I made is now popularized by Clarence Thomas and others that are finding its way into our j. But anyway, 3 advisors to the company found it so offensive that I would make this argument in public that within 48 hours of that piece they resigned.
Speaker 2 And that was definitely a post gen 6 mood and reaction that I had to then make a choice. Right? Because now this is having potentially an adverse impact on the company. I could either Alright. Call it a year where I experimented with expressing myself and, you know, wearing my legal academic cat and call that a day and continue with biotech.
Speaker 2 Or legitimately if I didn't wanna have an adverse impact on my company, I could step down and really speak freely. I choose to I chose to... Step down, not in small part because the company was doing great, you know, I had a successor lined up, So there was a fortunate set of circumstances it happened to be the right time. I just had my first son. My sun kart was born in February of 20 20.
Speaker 2 He was about to turn a year old. We were a transitional phase of our life, Covid, you know, we were we had a year away from the office. My wife was filling her fellowship. There was just a lot going on in our life that it felt like this was... A moment for a life transition to focus on...
Speaker 2 You know are a lot of people, talented people developing medicines, maybe some of them more talented, than me, you know Ro a successful company.
Speaker 1 Did you feel like you were being bullied into making a statement about Black lives matter by your own employees and do you... What's your thought? Generally speaking on companies being politically active and companies having a political voice because it has come up in our industry over and over again. You might know Brian Orange from Coinbase Said, hey, we're here to do crypto nothing else. Please don't talk about anything political.
Speaker 1 So where are your thoughts generating that...
Speaker 5 You you wrote a whole book on this. Right? I mean, I wrote Yes.
Speaker 2 I read
Speaker 5 your book and it's it's least a lot about the distinction between what the intention is in optimizing for shareholders. Versus the personal interests of the executives and those in charge, expressing their personal points of view through the corporation. And you you had some point of view on where that should all go. But was that part motivating for you to run for public office and why president instead of running for a senate seat or congressional seat or something else?
Speaker 2 Yeah. So... It turns I've written I wrote 3 books in the last 2 years and 2 of them are about this topic. The first 1 is wok, which was for a general audience, and then there was a second 1 called capitalist punishment, which was specifically about the Es g strand of this and. Capital markets.
Speaker 2 And just for people are aware, my general view is that companies should focus on making products and services for people who need them, without apologizing for it. And yes, that's how you maximize profit for shareholders by having a worthy mission and sticking to it without taking on social missions that are best carried out by institutions outside of Corporate America. I so much believe this that even before I ran for president, this actually does answer your question, Dave I actually thought the way I was gonna have impact based on this. I enjoy being an author, but I'm not by nature just an academic. I like to do things.
Speaker 2 I I started a company called Strive. It's an asset management firm that directly competes against the likes of Black rock and State Street and Vanguard. That's what I thought my next leap was going to be. Str first fund launched last August. And less than a year in and it's close to a billion dollars in assets under management.
Speaker 2 I think it took Jp Jpmorgan in 2 years to get to a billion when they got into Etf business. That was what my journey was gonna be is within corporate America, restore the una pursuit of excellence. Over distracting and d diluted political environmental and social agendas. But the thing that struck me, I think late last year and last December, last year we had our second son, got a new company off the ground. You all know what that entails.
Speaker 2 You know, was very much an all in experience doing that. December, we had some time to take a step back. And you know, my wife and I, we gotta take a moment to ask yourself, why are you doing what you're doing? Not conversation you often have or take time to do, but you the question of the why. And it reminded me back of that experience I had, you asked me, did I feel bully.
Speaker 2 I didn't actually feel bullied. I think I can imagine someone in my shoes feeling that way, but I didn't feel like it was... Somebody corner me to do something I didn't want to do. Others have had that experience that wasn't quite how it felt for me. Felt like there's a group of people who followed me beyond this mission who look up to me who were disappointed in may, actually.
Speaker 2 And I think that was much harder than feeling like I was being bullied was to have a group of people who followed me on this worthy mission of developing medicines that pharma companies weren't that felt proud of that mission that now felt disappointed in May of and that was much harder to deal with than the bullying, but that also opened my eyes to the fact that I'm here stride fighting against Black rock and you know the Es industrial complex, which is a little bit of a deflect deflation from the essence of what I actually think is going on at the real root cause. Especially amongst young people in the country.
Speaker 1 What is that?
Speaker 2 Which is that they... And this what I saw in my employees in the experience I went. So that was formative for me. These are good people, these are earnest people. Many of whom came its...
Speaker 2 In many ways is my fault, because the pitch that we made in recruiting. We recruited from Harvard and Mit and everywhere else. Big pharma companies didn't recruit out of undergrad. We did. Part of my pitch picture was, hey, you want to go, you know, to a hedge fund and turn that pile of cash into bigger pile of cash or do want to actually make medicines that impact people's lives and do well that way.
Speaker 2 So that was part of you and my edge going in. So we select for a certain kind of person and then they come back and say they're disappointed me for not adopting unrelated social agendas, what that young people in this country. I'm a millennial you guys are young. We're hungry for a cause. Right?
Speaker 2 We're so hungry for purpose and meaning. And identity. And yet we're starving for that at a time in our history when the things that used to fill that void And we can... There's a lot of things that can feel that blank. I talked about it today in this constitution camp here in new Hampshire.
Speaker 2 Faith, patriot to some hard work, family. But I think there's there's some truth to a Bright Armstrong told employees, a corporation with a worthy mission can help fill that void too. And I think that's 1 of the roles that Ceos who feel like they're being bullied might miss as you... You not have people who are bullying you. You have people who are lost, who are looking to you for direction and purpose.
Speaker 3 You're saying it quickly, but I think that family and religion are very, very big drivers of them.
Speaker 5 Oh here, very.
Speaker 2 Yeah. I'm just saying it quickly because I talk about that all the time. But but I think the family and faith is... I mean, these are foundational building blocks.
Speaker 5 They're foundation.
Speaker 0 I think that when you
Speaker 3 look statistically at, like, the decay in the number of young people who are religious or the decay in a number of young people who actually have, you know, 2 parent families, all of this beats to the fact that the social norms that gave people purpose have actually gone, but they haven't been replaced with anything else. And I think that's the vacuum. That you're seeing, that many of these young people fall into, and so they're looking for something to your point. And the problem with that that is not the causes themselves, but the fact that they are short lived and then what's left over is the need for more and more and more. And that escalation, I think is very dangerous if you think about where you know society goes to from here.
Speaker 2 Yeah. I agree with you on that. And that's why I I have been characterized, and Jason introduced me that way too as anti woke. I don't actually think of my... I don't I don't like that label because it's it's not inaccurate.
Speaker 2 I don't like it because it's false. I think it misses the point where I think the way we actually combat. Fill in your favorite blanket, awoke, climate, covid, fentanyl usage, anxiety, depression, loss of self confidence. These things are symptoms. Of a deeper void of purpose and meaning.
Speaker 2 And so I don't think you help the matter much by... And I've done some of this. I will admit this. Right? It's I'm not book other people.
Speaker 1 Well, I mean, but but the book the book,
Speaker 2 I don't Have you read the book, jason or not.
Speaker 1 Haven't yet. But I will.
Speaker 2 Okay. The book is... It was it was titled and written before the word weapon woke took on its current political balance. Yeah. I will say that, actually.
Speaker 2 Okay. Many people didn't know what the word woke was at the time I typed.
Speaker 5 It was Fairly revel when you came out and use that word in your in your title. It was like, let me reveal to you a little bit about what... This thing that I'm calling Woke is turning into, which is a more broader kind of social psychological issue that we're all grappling with. Right. How it's now leach its way into politics, it's leach its way into nonprofit, it's leach its way.
Speaker 5 Into Corporate America, into 4 profits into the military into government, etcetera. Obviously, since that was published, It has now become this hot term that has different meaning for different people and it can be pretty inc in terms of how people.
Speaker 2 Appreciate you saying, Dave. Yep. I appreciate saying the dave because my my net prescription is actually We dilute, not just w them. I mean, that's just part of the story. We dilute secular religions, The rise of secular religions.
Speaker 2 Right. And and I don't call them even religions because the religion is with to the test of time, a cult has not. But the rise of modern secular cults, we dilute them to irrelevant by filling that void with an alternative vision. And so You if 1 political camp might offer race and gender and sexuality and climate as a prescription for the void. I think where conservatives fall badly short is by simply being and tie those things.
Speaker 2 Without actually offering an alternative vision of our own. And I... Am aiming certainly to do that. In the spam race,
Speaker 1 gender and these kind of things, what would be your, you know, qualities or things to focus on.
Speaker 2 So let's do, like a little face off. Right? Any of these who you're talking about race gender sexuality climate. I pair them up against. Individual family nation God.
Speaker 2 Okay? And I think that there's a substantive vision here. I think America happened to have been founded on the latter vision not former. So if I'm running for Us President, and I think that that already tilt the scales in favor of this vision because it so happens as a historical matter, America was grounded on some people will can contest this, but I think on that vision rather than the genetic and climate based 1. But I think that that's something where the Republican party and conservatives have fallen short, that's part of what to your question, jason pulled me into this, is I saw the emergence of what was likely to be a bio brawl between 2 guys who are the, front runners or whatever.
Speaker 2 You know, that's not productive. But I think more importantly than a bio brawl, even the question about who we are. I think the Republican party and the conservative movement, was in many ways defining itself in opposition to that alternative vision of identity where what I want to do, what I'm striving to do. And I hope we're doing. Is actually offering an affirmative vision of our own that go to the heart of what it means to be an American and You know, I don't think that national identity alone is going to fill that vacuum fully, but I think it makes a pretty good darn stride forward.
Speaker 2 And I think there's roles for pastors and others. That's beyond my pay grade. And so I'm not I'm not p reporting to do that in this campaign and I speak to it, but that's that's gonna be the role of people in a higher calling than being Us president. But I think the next Us president can play a meaningful role in filling that vacuum at least when it comes to national identity. So that's really what this campaign about is not.
Speaker 2 It's not anti woke. It is una nationalist in a certain sense of that word. National sense of embracing those ideals that sent this nation into motion that still unite us across those genetically inherited attributes that we've otherwise celebrated over the last 10 years in the.
Speaker 1 To say you believe in American exceptional And that's that's your platform for right.
Speaker 2 Is platform. That is added little platform. The exceptional of the ideals that set this country into motion. Absolutely.
Speaker 5 So Vi, let me ask a question around where we are in the cycle of the American experiment. We're We have obviously allowed the throttle to be full forward and as a result, we've seen extraordinary progress emerge. From the entrepreneurial talents and the drive of the people of this country for the past 250 years, and it's really extraordinary and a transformed human civilization. We now find ourselves particularly over the past 50 years as this problem has gotten worse with increasing disparity between the haves and the half not. Or those who believe they they have not, which is nearly everyone.
Speaker 5 Everyone now has some point of view that they have not got something and they see other people that do have something that they do not. And this inequality and this perception of inequality both with respect to absolute amounts of capital, income earnings. And these perception issues have now driven a populous movement in this country that we have seen historically many times in the past, different countries, that ultimately turn into either socialist nations or fascist nations. You know, in all cases, some sort of auto regime seems to have emerged because of this populous movement that we're now seeing not just in the Us but across the west. Do you feel like we're at that moment in the Us?
Speaker 5 And 1 of the manifestations of that, I'll say is government spending. Because everyone demands more from their government and the government steps up and the elected officials that they elect, step up and spend more and it layers and it layers and layers. And we now have a 33000000000000 dollars debt load, and we have a 1 and a half trillion dollar annual deficit and by many projections, Social security will be bankrupt. In anywhere from 10 to 15 years, 10 to 20 years, Whatever numbers you wanna use the Cb assumes we're gonna have unsustainable spiraling debt What is your point of view on where we are in the cycle? How it's manifesting today and how we're gonna deal with the fiscal issues that arise from these movements?
Speaker 2 Yes. So I think where we are in that in the cycle, I don't take that as a passive law of physics. I think that who runs this country and leads this country can make an actual difference in the actual underlying course of that so called cycle, which is part of what pulls me into this. So I'm a little bit unconventional on did my views on the debt load and the entitlement spending this country and our first step in our way out of it. I I don't think we're in a place of having remotely enough consensus or trust, and I think trust is probably the more important word than consensus.
Speaker 2 To begin just Snip make cuts to what people feel like they were entitled to and promised, especially in a moment where we're beginning with deep dis trust, that will take what you call those populist flames and throw ke seen on it. K. I do... I'm more optimistic about this and I think this is quite realistic actually. Is that the next leap forward is we can grow our way out of...
Speaker 2 I'm not gonna say all, but most of our actual fiscal ka land pending fiscal calamity. Right? This year, I mean I, like right now, last 6 months, we're talking less than 1.5 percent annual Gdp growth, what we're averaging right now. For most of our national history, we actually grown it over 4 plus percent Gdp growth. Certainly, if you go back to the pretty gold standard period, And even after going off the gold standard, we had a relatively stable Us dollar and I am 1 of these weird guys who believes that the fed should have a single mandate of dollar stability.
Speaker 2 Without playing the Phillips game. But anyway, put that sidetracked to 1 side. We've grown at 3 4 percent Gdp growth for most of our national history, even relatively recent national history. And I don't think it's a complicated path to get back there. I think things we need to do.
Speaker 2 Unlock American energy. There's... You know, we talk about secular. I view the climate cult as 1 of those secular religions.
Speaker 1 Which black. What was your specific energy plan be?
Speaker 2 Completely completely unlock the permitting process that they've used as a backdoor mechanism to shut down American energy production? Drilling fracking, burning coal, coal should not be a 4 letter word, embracing nuclear energy. Later tonight, like after we're having this conversation. This evening I'm gonna be at s saint College. Laying out my detail.
Speaker 2 It's gonna be like a giant poster, laying out the anatomy of how I will shut down the nuclear regulatory commission. Which has been a fundamentally hostile administrative agency to the existence of nuclear power in this country, actually even into the detriment of actually making sure that we are getting our nuclear energy from Gen 2 rather than Gen 3 or Gen 4 reactors, but that'll be for tonight, it's an all of the above approach of un uncheck ourselves to produce energy here in the United States. Do you point about you know, Dave made a good point earlier about the addiction of paying people more from the federal government that becomes the status quo that's your voter base. That's not even good in many cases for the people we're giving that money too. I think we should stop paying people to stay at home.
Speaker 2 When actually the top obstacle from any businesses to grow, you guys will know this well is filling vacant. Job openings. And so that is an obstacle to Gdp growth is paying people more to stay at home than many of them earned to go back to work.
Speaker 3 Do you think that the Ira was good legislation?
Speaker 2 I I don't have... I'm it's not like it's not like my the horse that I'm gonna, you know, ride ride in terms of, like, the main and pin everything on it. But but I mostly don't think it was it was great legislation. What what like, where are you coming from on that? Because I...
Speaker 2 We might have different reasons?
Speaker 3 If you if you think about what the Ira does for energy and frankly me if you just roll up... The Bi chips in Ira. I'm just curious your thoughts on whether government incentives are moving in that direction. That you actually support or you still think it's it's missing something?
Speaker 2 Well so 1 of things that I actually focus on and I think it's really important is what can the Us president actually do. Right I mean, president Trump's, I don't know people remember this. His main promise policy promise was actually rep appeal and replace Obamacare, which never happened because it required going through Congress. So I'm actually focused on elements that I can deliver on. Without asking Congress either for permission or forgiveness.
Speaker 2 And so that's when I answer to Jason because I go straight to at least, let's focus on actually, the administrative state which on my reading of the constitution reports in to the single duly elected president. So when I talk about the permitting process of the Department of Interior, or shutting down the nuclear Regulatory Commission. I believe, you know, we could go I'm going into details on it tonight. I have the legal authority to do that as the Us president I think the legislation is gonna be much more complicated and I don't believe that I can be in a position to promise what we would do legislative to any of that.
Speaker 3 You mentioned getting people to take all these jobs that that are available. Do you wanna talk about immigration for a second and while you think about that?
Speaker 2 Yeah. Merit based information. For
Speaker 1 immigration, Would would you... Are you saying you would cut entitlements like unemployment or shorten the unemployment period to force people to go back to work? Is that... And what I'm
Speaker 2 to them and tie them to work requirements. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1 Would you have to specific for that? Like, a certain number of months or... You know, Your
Speaker 2 a pretty good a pretty good... I mean, I do, but I think that's again, I'm very clear about what I will do through Executive Authority. What needs
Speaker 1 to go through legislation? I mean, that's
Speaker 2 all in negotiation, but I think a good principle is 19 96 or in the nineties. Work fair under Clinton was actually far more aggressive than the work environment work requirements that were put into this supposed Republican led debt deal where like, what did they say? It was if you're age 18 to 55. And you are able bodied and the childless. Then you have to work at least 20 hours a week in order to receive more than 3 months out of 3 years worth of welfare.
Speaker 2 Right? Now, Joe Biden as a Us senator voted for actually much more stringent work fair requirements in the nineties. So yes, I have ideas on specifics, but I'm not gonna make a promise on exactly what that specific look like, but a guiding principle is it has to be at least as aggressive. As what we. During Clinton,
Speaker 1 we had 69... Almost 70 percent participation and we're at 60 exact now I think. So... It's obvious that we have to trim that But to T next point, you know, we have 10000000 job openings. We're not letting anybody in.
Speaker 1 How would you look at immigration? Obviously, we have people coming in the southern border illegally, and then we have h 1 visas and now Canada is saying, hey, we'll steal all those H 1 b's will take them. How do you look at immigration to Cha jamal question?
Speaker 2 Merit based immigration. I mean 1 of the things that Canada does have and I'm not a fan of America mutated Canada or anything like this in in most... Respects, but they do have a point based system. Right? They have a point based system.
Speaker 2 And so I think the point based system should work differently in the Us to but I do favor merit based immigration. I'm a little bit of a departure from what I think is the Republican consensus here. You know, people I respect, Tom Cotton and others have proposed bills with a hard cap on the number of immigrants. I it's a mistake. I think that the cap should declare itself based on how many people meet the merit democratic criteria?
Speaker 1 What I'm gonna... Different qualities then
Speaker 2 Yeah.
Speaker 1 For what what would be in tough criteria in this point based system. 2 criteria?
Speaker 2 Skills that match up to job openings in the United States, but second, and this one's important to me. I would move the Civic portion of becoming a citizen to the front end of even being granted a Visa to enter this country. And I think that addresses and accommodate an important part of the concern that many people who are pro immigration cap actually favor is I think there are legitimate concerns about the dilution, the loss of a national identity. But a lot of that is con with first the cycle of illegal immigration. I'm a hard line on this.
Speaker 2 I favor putting the Us military on the southern border. Said I would use it on the Northern border. I believe the that we are on strong constitutional and legal authority to do it. I do not think building the wall was enough. I've there are cartel finance tunnels underneath that wall that vehicles literally run through today.
Speaker 2 So in some ways, I'm going further than Trump in this direction, but simultaneously, deep bureau democrat, speed up the process for merit based immigration, but part of merit includes not just skills. But also civic commitments to the country. And I'm you know, I used the word nationalist before. I know that scares some people. I mean it in a positive way, I think every high school student in this country should have to pass the same civic test that an immigrant has to pass.
Speaker 2 In order to become a citizen of this country. I also would favor bringing that on the front end and it selects for the kind of people who know something about the country when they enter
Speaker 3 which I think is a good Assimilate,
Speaker 1 and they should love this country in order to come into the country.
Speaker 2 Yes. I do. I think I think you should want come here to be American. Yeah.
Speaker 1 Think doing you get agreement around the the horn here. Sa, you've heard Vi position so far. You obviously are passionate about. The Gop, what what do you agree with? And what don't you agree with so far?
Speaker 4 Well, there's a lot of stuff to agree with there. And we're talking about American exceptional. 1 thing I wanna talk about there is that I agree that America is exceptional and we're most exceptional when we're trying to set an example. For other nations. Where we're trying to be the shining city on a hill as Reagan put it.
Speaker 4 But lately, and really, I mean over the last couple of decades for what you've seen is that what American Exceptional means to a lot of people in Washington is that we run all over the world and impose our ideology and our values on all these different countries. We began this great crusade to try and spread democracy in Middle East. We tried to turn countries like Afghanistan and Iraq into Minnesota democracies where you now are very, very involved in Ukraine basically trying to detach that country from the Russians sphere of influence and turning it into a member of our military and economic alliance. So it does seem like American Exceptional has taken on the sort of harder, more... Mil edge.
Speaker 4 Where would you draw the line? I mean, like, what makes sense to you?
Speaker 2 I think I basically agree with everything you just said. I think as a side note on the geopolitics of. I I do think Ukraine is on track to become potentially the next Vietnam or the next iraq. Think you have said similar things. I also think there's something else going on with Ukraine that's fueling this, which relates to the.
Speaker 2 Deeper identity crisis in our country that I described earlier. I think Ukraine has become a new religion, right? In the in the country, and it's a substitute for purpose and meaning just like climate ideology or is. And and, you know, there's the flag. Across.
Speaker 2 I mean, people, like, waving these Absolutely. You go to Washington, Dc at least I did in June. I was there for 1 of the Sunday shows my wife and are going for a walk. We saw more trans flags and Ukraine flags than we did American flags on a short walk that we took through Washington Dc or nation's capital. So I'm not I'm not whining about this or being about.
Speaker 2 I just think getting to the essence of what's going on. I think that's a different element of Ukraine that's different from even what we saw with be an Vietnam rock. I don't think American exceptional is voicing our values on anyone. I think American exceptional is about demonstrating through our example. How America flourish and is strong when we live by our own ideals.
Speaker 2 And I think the best way we give hope to the free world, is by being that shining city on a hill, not going somewhere else and talking about it with tanks behind us while actually suffering here at home if you you roam the Streets at Kensington. As I did a few weeks ago, you know, you don't have to go to you don't have to go to baghdad to see the third world. And so That I think is is I think a big loss of where we are today in the country.
Speaker 1 When you're a president, putin invade Ukraine, you would sit back, not give any armament and let him roll in.
Speaker 2 Here's what I would do. I would actually be proactive in doing a deal. And I've been very clear about the deal I would do. Trump has said he would do a deal in 24 hours and said what it was. I I believe there's a deal to be done, but I also believe it's important to be clear about what the contours of that deal would be.
Speaker 2 I would freeze the current line. Let's take the status quo right now. So I can answer your question or I can answer starting from the present. If you don't... I...
Speaker 2 We could do put the.
Speaker 1 Yeah. The obvious is maybe put nato... Take nato off the table and avoid the whole thing. But now we're at. That's what.
Speaker 1 Yeah. We're playing history So maybe it's better
Speaker 2 talk about what's happening the president(19? Because I don't think that we would have if I was president, I don't think we would have gotten to the point of those. Things rolling in, Angela Merkel made some disastrous comments, Putin made a hard demand. We would have said hard no to Ukraine joining nato and that would have been that there would have been no.
Speaker 1 And couldn't may let's took needle off the table, put may have still invaded. We don't know.
Speaker 2 I I don't I don't think so but we can't... You know, those are counter that we exactly. You know, No. We're not gonna have 1 side or the other being able to to to prove that. Right?
Speaker 2 So let's talk about the president. Right now, let's say Us president. I would freeze the current lines of control. We have a precedent for doing this. The Korean War, Korean War style armistice.
Speaker 2 That does give Putin most of the Dom region. That's beyond the pale of what many are willing to accept in either party, but I think any deal, someone has to win. Everyone has to win, something out of the deal. I would further then give that assurance that Nato will not admit Ukraine to nato. But there's a requirement in return.
Speaker 2 The biggest requirement is that Russia has to exit its military partnership with China. There's a 2001 treaty. It's called the treaty of good neighbor and cooperation. Military cooperation between the 2 countries. That Xi jinping and Putin ratchet it up to the so called strategic no limits partnership in 20 22, That is why China is now coming by the way, to Russia's aid.
Speaker 2 I personally believe we are absolutely sending. Putin into jinping arms in a way that's a mistake. I would also require that Putin remove his nuclear weapons from c, that we take any Russian military presence in the Us and the Western hemisphere off the table, Venezuela Cuba, nic. I think this is a deal that putin would do. If we paired it with reopening economic relations with Russia, which I would do.
Speaker 2 Because I think Putin does... And I can give you some evidence for this, but I think Putin does not enjoy being Xi Jinping little brother. And so I think that this is actually an opportunity and I have to confess I'm a guy who sees our foreign policy prism through the prism of believing that China is the top. Long run threat that we face and so most of my foreign policy views and national security views even on topics that are apparently unrelated to China, I still see it through that prism. But this 1 isn't a far leap because China's literally in a military treaty with Russia and coming to their aid.
Speaker 2 I would use the Ukraine war and and end to the Ukraine war. As a way to bi the Russia China relationship and divide basically dissolve that relationship And then actually, that's our best way and most effective step towards deter Xi jinping from going after Taiwan. Because right now, Xi Jinping, you know, I think that there's a mistaken consensus view that the way he thinks about it is, oh, reason by analogy rather than by actual analyzing. Of a situation, say, oh, he got that piece of land maybe I can go get this island. I don't think he reasons by analogy.
Speaker 2 I think he reasons buy The cards he has in terms of hard power. So his bet is that the Us won't want to go to war with 2 different allied nuclear superpower at the same. Time. But if Russia's is no longer in his camp, then Xi jinping gonna have to think twice about going after Taiwan. So then I 1 my broader Taiwan.
Speaker 2 His
Speaker 1 question there is. You wouldn't defend Ukraine. Would you have America and the allies defend Taiwan if it was invaded.
Speaker 2 I would at least until the Us has achieved semiconductor independence.
Speaker 1 So you defense price. Yeah.
Speaker 2 Because we depend on them for our modern way of life in a way that we don't. On Ukraine. And and then the in the latter part of this is sounds a little cra to some people, but I believe in being honest. I actually think that Yeah. I'll can't get to the I'll get to this point in a second, but to answer your question.
Speaker 2 Yes, until we've achieved semiconductor independence. God. I believe we can achieve semiconductor independence.
Speaker 1 Yes. So it's not... Your belief is not, hey, these are 2 democracies. They both deserve equal vents from the United States, Ukraine and Taiwan. It's...
Speaker 1 Ukraine doesn't have semiconductors. We don't have a strategic need to defend them Yeah. In Taiwan. So it's a lot more of a pragmatic cut throat vents approach to foreign policy.
Speaker 2 It is. III, of course, you know resist the characterization of cut throat a little bit. I go back to the principle of that David mentioned of what American exceptional is to me is that when America is strong. And Is flourishing and Americans are flourishing within America. We set the example for the free world of what is possible.
Speaker 2 And so my view is that, yes, at least until until we're semiconductor self sufficient. And I think things work out here where... I think we can get there.
Speaker 1 So in 5 frame. We're... We've got our semiconductors up and running, You'll let China roll into Taiwan No big deal for you.
Speaker 2 I will say that I definitely evaluate that very differently than I do say a lot of can sac but Your thoughts important free?
Speaker 5 Yeah. Let me just ask... So Vi, I mean, I think that your point is is a really important 1, which is that when we're happy at home, we tend not to look for conflict abroad. That's almost a universal truth that's emerged from history. Human civilization has shown that, you know, when the people in a democracy in particular are happy at home.
Speaker 5 And certainly auto talk either quite different, Alexander the great and Julius Caesar Augustus Caesar. He you go through history. But like, when you have a a true democracy, you don't vote to go and you don't support the idea. Of conflict abroad if you're happy at home. But the counter is true, which is when you're unhappy at home, you tend to look for conflict abroad.
Speaker 5 And By some assessments, Ray Dahlia had this great book about this, the changing world order Don't know if you, if you read it. But you know, he makes this point about the internal strife leads to external conflict, which is why it felt like we were gonna go that way with... Ukraine Russia coming out of 21. So I wonder are we happy at home?
Speaker 2 Mh. We're not...
Speaker 5 And I wanna ask you... I wanna ask another question, Tied to this. Why is Donald Trump leading in the polls? Because I think that the 2 go hand in hand? There is something that he represents and there's something about his voice to that I think echoes the sentiment of this populist unhappiness inside of this country today that manifest in a bunch of ways.
Speaker 5 1 of which is the interest in and support for external conflict. But I don't know. If you're up for kind thinking about tackling the 2 questions together, but I love your your your take on that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 Great question.
Speaker 2 I think you're absolutely right. I mean, you're extending a theme of where I talk about sort of domestic cultural annoy. As a symptom of a deeper vacuum in our national soul. I think that actually our projection and focus abroad is a lot easier of a deflect deflation away. From the harder step of taking a long hard look in the mirror and asking ourselves about the health of our own nation today.
Speaker 2 And so I think it's a deep question I think we're not healthy as a nation today. I think we suffer from deep seated psychic insecurity, psychological insecurities. I think the economic stag, the fact that real wage growth isn't up for the bottom 90 to 9 percent of the country. Now a lot of that I put at the feet of the federal reserve. There are a lot of other complex factors behind it, but a lot of this feeds into what you call pop.
Speaker 2 I don't Excuse me. I don't I I don't like to tell it
Speaker 5 by the way, just to be clear. I think that it's...
Speaker 2 It's just It's a it's a wrapper
Speaker 5 that tries to catch too many things, and it doesn't catch any of them enough. So Me think What you're
Speaker 4 calling pop is actually a failure of our elites. Isn't that What's going on? We saw during Covid? Yeah that all the health authorities did a horrible job, the Cdc and the Nih. It turns out they were funding gain of function research which may have caused Gov, in the first place.
Speaker 4 They were doing experiments on bad viruses.
Speaker 2 Almost certainly did cause.
Speaker 4 Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, we keep finding out that the elites are supposed to be running the country and running these institutions are doing absolutely horrible job. That's what the reaction is against. Then people come along and label a pop and say it's gonna lead to fascism.
Speaker 4 It's like come on. That is a way of protecting the people and power from accountability for the horrible job they're doing.
Speaker 1 It's what well said.
Speaker 2 Absolutely. In the use of the word pop is almost stacking the debate in favor of saying that those grievances aren't legitimate. And so I think why is Donald Trump? Pulling it number 1 in the polls because people know the truth? I think those grievances are absolutely legitimate.
Speaker 2 Now I think the mood of the country has changed a little bit, including the mood of the hard conservative base has changed since 20 15. I think there now I think there now a sense that what are we actually going to do about it? Are we going to go the direction of a national divorce? Their divorce is 1 of these things that speaks itself into existence. Maybe applies at the same at the level of a nation.
Speaker 2 Right? That's on the table It's in the it's in the ether. I don't think most people, including in our hardcore America first base. I'm part of that base. I don't think want a national divorce.
Speaker 2 And so I think that the moment now calls for this why in this race. This is actually why at this point, I couldn't have told you this in March. But at this point, I'm convinced we're actually gonna be successful in this. This is what the unique fusion we're gonna require. Is it's not somebody showing up saying Haute K, let's move forward.
Speaker 2 Compromise whole hands and declare its morning again in America. No, That ain't going work. But I think it requires recognizing the legitimacy of those grievance not as lip service. I I believe for Say reason as Sexist mentioned. Many of those grievances are legitimate They're grounded in truth, but to say, it's as I often say to the left, hardship is not the same thing as victim, and we're not gonna choose victim hood, we're going to choose recognition of truth as our best path to heal over whatever's happened and then to move forward.
Speaker 2 That's why I've come out and been very vocal about the fact that I would pardon in Trump of each of the 2 indictment that have already been brought. If the J indictment has brought against him, I would do the same thing. I think that we have to be able to recognize the truth of our past grievances of our fellow Americans. And actually, not just pay lip service to it, but feel into it and acknowledge the reality of them. I think that's then the table stakes of events meeting a demand that many in our grassroots conservative base app.
Speaker 2 I'm 1 of them, a desire to also move forward as 1 nation. And I think both of those elements are going to be required, They don't go together. I think there are people in the Republican primary who offer, each of those on their own.
Speaker 5 Yeah. Did they whoever whoever's
Speaker 2 gonna have offer for both.
Speaker 5 This morning, there was a an opinion piece. I'm assuming you read it by Rich Lowry. Chief of the National review, published on Political. Get ready for the vi rama Swam moment in which I would say he's fairly a fu serve about the campaign you're running. Right?
Speaker 5 I mean, would you agree like...
Speaker 3 If you soup, you said?
Speaker 5 Yeah. So there was
Speaker 2 a really. So I'm really taking this.
Speaker 5 Did you read the? I mean, I thought there were some...
Speaker 2 It abusive. Really abusive. Yeah.
Speaker 1 He loves you.
Speaker 7 Yeah. No. He said
Speaker 2 he doesn't love me. Yeah he doesn't
Speaker 4 love you.
Speaker 5 But he said so. I think he said some complimentary things that's took about your campaign and about your character, but said there's no way you're gonna win and win for president.
Speaker 1 Well, you went from... Under 1 percent. I think now the latest policy tells you above 5 percent and we're in the very early innings here. Right?
Speaker 2 I think there's 1 that just came. I mean, yeah, There's some that have you know, bounce a little higher than that. But Yeah. You're little higher before the first debate.
Speaker 4 The thing that Done, let me just state this on observer and then you can react to it. Is that you have kind of inserted yourself in the debate on every issue, you know, every day as it comes up up. I mean, you're kind of living off the land as a candidate, not out there with just kind of a attrition stump speech, but you're up finding a way to insert yourself into the debate every day. On social media, I see it. Right?
Speaker 4 I mean, you post a tweet, that will hit the nerve of whatever the issue is going viral that day, which means a you'll go viral. And so for months, I've been seeing tweets go, super viral. And so it's not surprising to me that your can't starting to, you know, catch on in that way. What's remarkable to me is that other candidates can't do it. I mean, when you first started doing it, I was kinda like, okay, This is obvious and easy.
Speaker 4 Of course, this is what you would do. But other candidates have not really done that for whatever of reason. So I mean, am I...
Speaker 2 You perspective. Yeah. My... On that. Because if we usually like
Speaker 4 it is when you accuse us of creating a banking crisis. But other
Speaker 7 than that.
Speaker 2 Yeah. I do wanna close the loop on that 1, you either do it on air or off.
Speaker 1 Jordan right now. Let's go.
Speaker 0 Do it
Speaker 5 right now. Yeah.
Speaker 2 You know what so on for the other candidates, Not doing it... It's it's on anyway, that's less interesting. It's fine. Who would maybe the I think it's not running it through a filter. Right because I think the traditional political thing is.
Speaker 2 And here's what's gonna happen to me. As a consequence. I'm gonna eat the consequence of this. Right? Everything comes at a cost.
Speaker 2 There's no free lunch. I'm gonna say something. In real time that reflects my honest instincts. That's my whole strategy. Right?
Speaker 2 People can tell the difference. But then I'm gonna change my mind on 1 out of a hundred things. Okay. And that's just gonna happen. Right?
Speaker 2 And and have you open to that and eat my words. And, you know, I'm gonna do it at some point. And and that's the trade off we're making. Is that I'm not running it through the filters. I'm I'm not making up what I believe.
Speaker 2 I'm telling you actually, to the contrary what I truly believe But if I'm doing it really that rapidly in response to what's happening. I think people appreciate that, but I'm gonna eat my words at some point. And that's okay.
Speaker 1 In box new information.
Speaker 2 You response new information or sometimes even in response to reflection. Right?
Speaker 4 So gap basically, because it's less filtered. That's what you're saying.
Speaker 2 You may make a gap. Do you wanna close a loop on this other thing?
Speaker 5 Yeah. Do you think Genesis cost a banking crisis by using all caps slots when he tweeted? Yes or no. I did not
Speaker 1 I can't tweet on a Saturday. I'd call the goes a bank?
Speaker 2 I did not say... III did not... I I never said that either. But we did go at it pretty hard. I think actually I I think there's a chance.
Speaker 2 We might still disagree Dave, but I think that I'm talking the Sa here, Yep. So so I actually talked to a lot of friends who were in the position of running companies that had some amount of cat... And and and we talked through this, like the the specifics of the situation. And then it dawned on me, where and it might... Not it's not necessarily we're gonna agree at the end of this, but there's a chance that we might actually.
Speaker 2 Which is this. So in the lead up to this before that Friday, I was already against. Any governmental intervention? Let this play out. Why?
Speaker 2 Because like let's put aside all the do the math on it? And I'm remember this a little hazy now, Right? So on the facts, but I think it's approximately right and you correct if you have up to date facts on this. But I it's approximately right. If everybody had run, and gotten their money out.
Speaker 2 I think it would have been like 94 cents on the dollar than everybody would have walked out with. Right? And so what happened on Friday is in this the part where I wanna potentially build a bridge here. The part... What happened on Friday was that Friday was the government Fdic otherwise.
Speaker 2 Froze.
Speaker 4 Regulator. Friday morning. Yeah.
Speaker 2 Yeah. The friday morning. You much closer to this know in the details, but the California regulator letter froze the ability to take out deposits. So I'm am more sympathetic to the point that once the government's gotten in bulk because that really is then like, you know, kind of like an o crap moment where your Ceo of a company or Cfo and you want to get your money and then you can't now it's panic. Right?
Speaker 2 Right. And so I think that there's a version of the world where the version of the world I wanted. And I was talking about this before hugh and I were talking directly to each other. I just think this should stayed out of it 94 cents on the dollar, not bad, which is why the public didn't actually end up directly using taxpayer funds was because the bank was healthy in its own. Right.
Speaker 2 That's what... That's the worst result of bank would have produced there, which actually should have been heart in of confidence. But let
Speaker 5 let me give you an insight that maybe you weren't... As close to as the rest of us were, which is on all the boards that all of us sit on. All of the boards were discussing independent of this show and the conversations in the media, we need to move all of our money out of all of the banks that aren't 1 of the top 3 and move all of our money into those top 3. So the the
Speaker 4 To the top 4 ships.
Speaker 5 That's the point of view that we all saw was that there was a mad rush in corporate America in startup land in small business land. This isn't even Vc land. This is like everything from the profits that we sit on the board of to the you know, laundromat to the dry cleaner to every business.
Speaker 2 I got you.
Speaker 1 I have
Speaker 5 your money and a small bank was saying, I gotta move my money into a big bank now. And that's where the whole banking system has put at risk, and that is why we all universally felt that it was important to highlight. That the federal government needs to step in and reassure and rebuild confidence in the small banks in this country. Just deposits. Not the only...
Speaker 5 And that the only way to do that was to say your deposits are safe. And that was it. And that that was the point because the panic that was going on in small business land in America. Which as you know, employs half of the people in this country was at risk. And that those people, those small businesses were fearful and they were looking to rush to the big banks, and that would have crater the small banks around the country.
Speaker 2 So... And I think it's a it's a difference in vantage point. Right? You discussion of about pop and everything else. Yeah.
Speaker 2 I don't think dave if Sex caused the bank anymore that I'm causing populist waves in this country.
Speaker 5 Again, it was
Speaker 7 Jason with his... Caps. But yeah, Go ahead.
Speaker 2 I but I think I I think the reality is
Speaker 4 People literally have tweeted that I called the bankruptcy insane. But Right.
Speaker 2 Right. There's it There's a technical... There's a technical point I'll make and then we'll get to the deeper. The technical point to close lupus. I think dave...
Speaker 2 I find your... Position more reasonable given that it's after Friday when the California regulators came in and locked in. But in my version of the world, I would have just said stay the heck out, government of any kind, 94 cents on the dollar, there's a 6 percent haircut. And we've discover the market actually works and we avoid playing favor in the first place, and I say this is somebody who and this is where you understand my vantage point. Have been a long time opponent of the creation of the notion of Ci, systemically important banks in the first place as an opponent to the bailout of 2008.
Speaker 2 As somebody who's running for Us president not to lead incremental reforms, but a sort of revolution in the kind of restoration in the integrity of both capitalism and democracy that I think is actually the best antidote to. Would you try to
Speaker 3 d construct the S?
Speaker 2 Well, I mean, give the status quo where we are. I think that I would have to offer a credible enough base. To make sure that people know that if there's a systemic so called previously known as systemically important bank that fails, that the public still not going to be there for them But in a way, this route allows for enough of a enough of an un burden banking sector that we have resilience in terms of exactly who can actually fill that. Void. And I think that there is a discourse impact on.
Speaker 2 I don't think it has to be. And this where may may disagree a little bit and there's is a small scale disagreement, I don't think it has to be a state of the world where we just assume consumers are dumb and don't take this decision account. Consumers are in part dumb because we treat them as dumb. Right? And so the these...
Speaker 2 It's like a he effect. Right? You get... You know, you you you have assume... You're following with...
Speaker 2 And what I mean is you you know, basic principle and physics, you can't, you know, observe the spin and not affect the spin of the electronic at the same time. I think the same thing applies to a relationship between the government and its people. So I think part of the reason that people... I think I feel the same way about the Fda, by the way. I think people would be far more.
Speaker 2 And sc of the medicines they took, if it didn't come with the crowding out effect. Of that individual level of self responsibility and due diligence that the government wasn't doing. But now we live in the worst of all worlds where we have neither the government's is neither actually protecting nor actually providing the space for individual responsibility.
Speaker 3 I just wanted to hear, you know, you make a statement, you collect data? 1 in a hundred, you say you'll change your mind. I just wanna to understand with all the data the past, the present and probably who knows every every incremental day we see something new What is the full 360 degree view that Vi Ram has of Donald Trump?
Speaker 2 Full 360 degree view. Got it. Yeah. Actually haven't had a space to articulate this yet. So I I think this is useful.
Speaker 2 So my view is that He was a successful president(19 measured by rev the economy. President(19 period, How why do I say that? Rev revising the economy, growing the American economy, I think that recognizing and speaking to and partially addressing, concerns that had been historically una addressed by both both major political parties. We did not enter a major war we were on the brink of major conflict with North Korea on the pre and other parts of the world. Isis was a thing.
Speaker 2 It is... You know, by... It exists, but is by and large, not the same threat than it was after his president(19 as it was when he took over. These are major accomplishments Right? I think the immigration crisis I think is far worse today, precisely because biden in office and not Trump.
Speaker 2 So it's I believe he was a successful president. That's view number 1. View number 2, he has an effect on people. About 30 percent of this country that I think becomes psychiatric ill when he is the Us president. I think it's just fast.
Speaker 2 Right? Agreeing with things that they otherwise wouldn't have agreed with because.
Speaker 4 30 percent number applies on our Pod 2.
Speaker 2 1 and 4. Go... Well, I think that I I just it's just the reality is people lose their ability to process information. People lose the ability to think independently, it's like a demonic possession that happens in this country Of about as best I can tell about 30 percent of the country. And I think that's not good for the country.
Speaker 2 And we can debate who's to blame for that or whatever, but I'm just stating it in observation that I feel pretty strongly about. And so I think most of Trump's policies were good I have some policy disagreements with? Of course, I. It it'd be weird. If any 2 people agreed on a hundred percent of things.
Speaker 2 I would reenter the Cp? Do he exited the T. I think his exited of the T gives us a stronger negotiating position with Malaysia in Japan to, you know, fix some of the micro things that we might have wanted, China is not in the T that's part of the path to actually declare economic independence from China. If it comes to that. We could go into a lot of different details.
Speaker 2 I would have res the an action executive order that Linden signed, that I asked Trump's people why they didn't. They said it was a political hill they didn't wanna to die on. I'd shut down the Department of Education. We can go on. But broadly, He was a successful president with whom I mostly agree on his broad policy vision and especially.
Speaker 2 His handling a form...
Speaker 3 He get wrong and what and was the election stolen?
Speaker 2 Yeah. So so, I mean, I gave you, like small examples of what he got wrong. But I think the real care... The real thing that he got wrong. I'm not sure that getting wrong is the even framing.
Speaker 2 It's just a fact that 30 percent of this country became psychiatric ill, and you're the leader of this country you're leading a nation. And so you could decide whose fault that is, but I believe leaders are ultimately judged by their results. And for whatever reason, even when I'm saying the same things that Trump often did as a matter of policy or foreign policy or domestic economic policy. Maybe because people don't don't yet know me broadly, but I don't think that's it actually. I don't think I'm having that effect on people.
Speaker 2 And I think that that's why I'm in this race to carry forward una George Washington America first policies. And to do so more successfully, but also in a way that unites the country around that vision, more so than Donald Trump ever did or could in second term. Was the election stone. Here's the sense in which I think the election was stolen in a data driven way. I've have not seen any data to suggest.
Speaker 2 That the ballot fraud or anything like that would have been sufficient to overturn the ballot count of the ballots. I've not seen any of evidence to that effect. What I do see is hard evidence that people in this country would have elected a different president. Who's that? I like who who's is that?
Speaker 3 This is Tal. This is child number 5.
Speaker 2 Number 5, She's is cute.
Speaker 3 But number 1 in our heart.
Speaker 2 Oh, you he gets it. That's nice.
Speaker 1 Alright. So what'd you...
Speaker 3 That's your name I
Speaker 2 would saying. Holly. Holly. Holly. Hey.
Speaker 2 Hi. I've I'm I'm away from my son's spent next last few days, so I've I I, you know, I'm happy for you. Hopefully, we'll be with our little guys soon. You know, what I I'm saying is... Wanna get to the punchline line, The sense in which the election was stolen was the hunter turbine laptop story and the systematic suppression of information.
Speaker 2 I think that there is no doubt. Is no doubt. I think that the evidence strongly suggests that Trump would have been elected and not Biden. Had we actually a voter base that had access to that information. And I think that that is something that we ought to learn from and I think that it does cast a lot of doubt and frustration on the legitimacy of the election.
Speaker 1 Let me double click on that. You seem to have said on other programs. I've heard you at least a half dozen times talk about deep deep state conspiracy trying to frame Donald Trump, federal indictment of the 37 criminal charges for the stolen documents, refusing to give them back. You got the New York case, 34 more felony accounts. We're about to have another 1 drop on January sixth.
Speaker 1 You got the Georgia where he tried to get people to get 10000 more votes, You got the New York case where Cfo is going to jail. You got a guilty of sexual assault. And then you got the t to James is suing the Trump organization of b 7 are all 7, a deep state conspiracy.
Speaker 2 I think it's it's a collective ana galactic immune response to an antigen that challenged the system.
Speaker 1 I guess, really what case You do anything wrong. You're you think all many of these cases. He's Scot free. It's just I wanna
Speaker 2 be really clear about something. I'm running for Us president. In this race against Donald Trump because I'm the best position to lead this station forward.
Speaker 1 Okay And I would go any these 7?
Speaker 2 I would have made Would have made very different judgments than he did, but I think criminal analyzing bad judgments, especially when done so against political opponents in the midst of a presidential election. Is an awful judgment for a Us President and the Department of Justice underneath him to make.
Speaker 1 So I never judge. You think the Department of Justice and the person you put in charge of it, they're all cons firing and that he didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 2 Well, there's, like a lot in that statement? Sure. Does he... Did he do things that I think are rep that I wouldn't have done? Yeah.
Speaker 2 I think so. I mean, as a lot x as they exist. Right Absolutely. Dude do I think that Biden and a lot of other politicians who have come have done things that I would have done differently and actually think we're wrong decisions? Absolutely.
Speaker 2 But do I think that con a bad judgment with a breakage of law is a risk to our future. I think it is.
Speaker 1 Do you think he said those people to... I mean, it was just on January sixth?
Speaker 2 I don't think he did. No. No. I think when he
Speaker 1 that to March down there. And when he told the proud boys to stand by and stand back, you don't think that he was inc them.
Speaker 2 Let me just say, I'm not here to defend Donald Trump's behavior. I'm running for Us president. I think we...
Speaker 1 I think opinion on it.
Speaker 2 My opinion on this matter. I wanna be very clear about that the hat that I'm wearing. I would not have done what he did. But he was very. Me, you look at the transcripts.
Speaker 2 Yes you run this by as I have First amendment scholars just to check my... I mean, inc violence is not protected speech by the first amendment. There's no sense in which when he tells people to peacefully make their way to the capital that does not meet any supreme court test for what constitutes inc violence in this country. I think that let's just take the let's take the New York example. I mean, some of the stuff the details actually.
Speaker 1 Take let's take the oath keepers 1 because that found. Hold should should
Speaker 5 let me
Speaker 1 get this. Just 1 first Hold on Let me get my first. Both keepers founder Sue Roads got 18 years. Do you think that the Justice department did that because they're trying to frame Trump and you... And Trump told the oath, to stand by and to stand back, do you think he inside the oath keep just or no?
Speaker 2 Based on the facts that I have seen, I've seen no evidence of that. You're delusional.
Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah. I'm emotional.
Speaker 2 Look told them I stand by. Okay. So so I'm all... There's also an indictment that hasn't been brought so I've offered my opinion. Oh.
Speaker 2 The first 2 indictment that have been brought against him. Right? Right? I read them I read all 49 pages in the last 1. I'm responsive to facts.
Speaker 2 Yeah. So on the first 2 indictment, I think they're absolutely politically based... And I can go through the you're interested, we can go into the specifics
Speaker 1 I mean... Might be get you work. Yeah.
Speaker 2 You know, on New York. Right? I mean, Just give you a line on each. Right? Okay.
Speaker 2 In New York, Let's take a fact that it's a state offense that was upc charged to a felony and outside the statute of limitations. Only by tying it to an alleged federal crime and what was that federal crime, failing to report a hush money payment to a porn star as a campaign contribution. There would be a stronger case for using and paying hush money and using campaign funds to do it, then that was a federal campaign finance law violation. Them not actually counting it. So so many counts that's a po politicized prosecution.
Speaker 2 Against anybody else they would have brought it. Documents case, a 49 page I read it twice that does not once mention the presidential records Act the most relevant statute that talks about what the basis is for President to keep documents or not. And instead charges him according to I think 1 of the most una American laws in Us history. Passed during World war 1 to silence World war 1 dissent, including Eugene V devs, who Eugene V dev who was actually put in prison over this, I have long argued that that was a statue that should have long been over... Should have been res that's now being used to charge a crime rather than even more precise crime.
Speaker 2 So I tend to be very responsive maybe to the point of frustration of being technical on these things, but I believe facts and law actually matter. I think that If Trump was the best guy for the job, I wouldn't be running in this race. If Ronald Reagan we're alive and well today, I would not be running in this race.
Speaker 1 Got. So you're not a fan. I just. I wanna just go back to the...
Speaker 4 Oh, Wait. I have a question. I a question about these Trump scandals. Do you think that...
Speaker 2 1 of the 7?
Speaker 4 Well, I think do do you think Trump should be indicted for Donald Trump junior being paid 83000 dollars a month serve on the board of a Ukrainian energy company despite having no energy expertise.
Speaker 1 Oh, wait. That's Hunter.
Speaker 4 And his personal life being hearing crisis because he's a drug addict serve him getting that job 3 months after, his father approved a and back to coup against Ukrainian government? Do you think that Donald trump Junior should be? Investigated for that.
Speaker 2 And and David, is this is this also after that Donald Trump then sends 200000000000 dollars of Us tax spare money to that very country. After he's elected an office. I think that's the strongest of the scandals I've heard so far.
Speaker 1 So you believe Biden is a growing
Speaker 4 I say come. I'm man how by
Speaker 2 He it.
Speaker 1 Well, it's G. What Do you Think of Jared Kushner getting taking down 2000000000 From The Saudi after he walked Out of the White House.
Speaker 2 I I don't have... That's not a matter that I have views on. So Views
Speaker 1 on matt, but you got plenty of views on Trump.
Speaker 2 Because he's not in government. He's not in government.
Speaker 5 Oh yeah. Let's move on pass trump because you...
Speaker 2 And there is a pretty great example of why I'm in this race. Yeah. I'm telling you this. Is there something about the existence of Donald Trump?
Speaker 5 Exactly Can't get away for criminal made
Speaker 2 that deflect our ability?
Speaker 1 Yeah. Criminal behavior.
Speaker 2 And trying to sell forward. The agenda of this country, much of which was Trump's own agenda.
Speaker 5 So Vi, in in order to win this candidacy And the reason I brought up the political publication this morning. Obviously, there there was a bit of tongue in cheek on the fu, but the the the key point being made was you have no chance of winning. And that you shouldn't be in the race at all. Now look, I I I'd like
Speaker 2 to get was the thesis of the piece.
Speaker 5 What... What's interesting is where it's coming from. Right? It's coming from the establishment voice. And I think we'd like to hear just a little bit around your political strategy.
Speaker 5 What is your intention around building bridges and ties to the Republican establishment to support your candidacy here? Or does the or does the Republican establishment largely sit on the sidelines right now and wait to see who emerges with this popular movement and and who's out there? You're obviously running... An incredible campaign on the road, very active, very vocal. And as everyone says, probably by far, the most articulate and most thoughtful and most intelligent of the candidates in the race today, but lacking experience, lacking connections, not part of the establishment and as a result, cast in this negative light consistently by the by by these sorts of writers.
Speaker 5 So what is your strategy to win this race given me... Is it not important as Trump showed in the last election cycle to have those Republican establishment ties? Or are you gonna be building bridges? And then my follow up question is if you don't win what are you gonna do?
Speaker 2 So Yeah. So... Yeah. Let me let me address the first. It's basically in the camp that I don't think.
Speaker 2 It's the voters that ultimately matter, not the people who have appointed themselves in the reigning establishment or... It's not even the establishment anymore. It's an outdated. Establishment that I don't think actually is gonna influence meaningfully the result of this election, except for 1 respect, which is money, which I'll get back to. So so the area where we're punching above our weight, Right?
Speaker 2 Debates haven't even happened yet at least in the last week, I'm third and most of the national polls. This is well ahead of even where we planned to be. Right? We planned it to be in third by November, December ahead of the iowa caucus. I had a new Hampshire over perform expectations in both of those use the momentum to then win the race.
Speaker 2 That was broadly the strategy with the debate stages the plate as the way where I would steadily work my way into that. I think we're just now on a different curve where, you know, we might be in second place by then and by a smaller margin than people expected. I think the debate stage is critical. The campaign strategy is actually to combine the initial investment that because I've lived the American dream of I've was able to make. But to combine that with a true grassroots uplift.
Speaker 2 We've got close to 70000 maybe more I have to check the exact numbers unique donors already. Get former, you know, vice presidents or other candidates that are, you know, well on their way and struggling by some measures to get to 40000, which is the threshold for the first debate. So our strategy is very much a grassroots strategy. I've done more campaign events than anybody in the Republican field. And so this is our strategy is very grassroots driven.
Speaker 2 So I'm punching above my weight in terms of events, unique donations polling. The 1 area where I'm punching below. Weight is large scale donations. So we are not raising mass numbers of large check external funds yet into the campaign, my super packs or I don't even I mean, whatever. They're independent expenditures.
Speaker 2 I don't there's an entity that exists out there that's been affiliated with me has based on public reports tiny amounts of money compared to those that are supporting and all in for candidates from Tim Scott Ron. And That's also a reality, right? And I think that that comes with competitive advantages and disadvantages and they're 2 sides of the same coin. I think I am at Liberty. Total liberty.
Speaker 2 I feel totally unconstrained to person the strategy that David mentioned earlier, which is that I'm reacting in real time. To what I believe.
Speaker 3 Have you been surprised by the lack of clarity maybe of the Des campaign in really creating a pathway through Trump? And if you are surprised. What do you think he's doing wrong? If you have to critique it.
Speaker 2 Yeah. I'm not surprised because, you know I know him. And I think he's a good execute. Right? I think he has been a I disagree with some other people on this.
Speaker 2 I think it's been quite an effective governor. I think that when you're talking about and Scott Walker, in the last cycle was quite an effective governor. And for the same reasons that people believed Scott Walker was gonna to be the runaway nominee last time around. I think that people naturally gravitate people think they want somebody who has done something as an effective executor. But when it comes to the Us presidency, I think it's a unique.
Speaker 2 Role where what matters is actually having a vision for where we are going. Right? And so I'm not... I don't... Without saying things that are interpreted as being mean about somebody else or not.
Speaker 2 I know all of these people have known them for a long time. I've shared stages with them over the course of my Wok book tour a nation Victims book tour. I'm not surprised with how things are going in this race. You know, said we expected to be where we are in November. We're here in July.
Speaker 2 I'm not surprised that we're doing well. I understand how audiences across this country responded to my message in Wilkins. I'm not surprised they're continuing to respond well Trump. I there's nothing surprising about where we are in this race right now.
Speaker 3 And so you're not surprised because because Des is a... Competent administrator, but that is a great job as governor, but not the bill of goods for the president.
Speaker 2 I'm really point in this race from, I want out. But to be honest with you, I think I think there's a lot of truth to what I said.
Speaker 4 Don't you think Part of it though is that Trump has single out the Santa as the 1 candidate who he's gonna beat the hell out of. I mean...
Speaker 5 I don't
Speaker 2 think so, David, actually. I'll tell you why. It's even he's sure right.
Speaker 4 He has not attacked you. Trump's should say good things about you. Yeah. He he's not attacked
Speaker 2 anybody else in this race. Yeah. Exactly attack. Trust.
Speaker 1 Have you spent time
Speaker 2 with trump? I know all these guys. I
Speaker 1 know all have you spent time trump? When's the last time you talked to?
Speaker 2 Not a serious amount of time. I've spent more time with Than I have with
Speaker 1 I had a 1 with Trump?
Speaker 2 Once. Yeah. When... This long Was running for president, but we had dinner. Multiple And
Speaker 1 tried to build bridges with you? We thrown state. I mean most of
Speaker 2 us when we intersect each other were speaking at the same forums, the Nra, the family leader thing that Tucker did backstage. We have interactions with all the other candidates. I'd would like to think I'm friendly with everybody. You know, I don't know how you know, I I haven't talked to Ron recently, but Have talked him more before. But I think the reality is, yeah so David, what you said is definitely true and I'm not in this to be a political analyst, right?
Speaker 2 I'm in this to state what my beliefs are Say. And people can vote for me or not. But I actually do think... III don't think that Trump's commentary on the other candidates is having so much of an effect. I think voters, maybe people who are maybe initially buying the Sinus.
Speaker 2 I know many of them are people who are part of that traditional establishment. They didn't want that most of them didn't wanted to have nothing to do with Trump. But decided that was the next best thing. So I don't think that Trump's attacks are going to persuade them 1 way or another. I think comes down to the study of what happened in 20 16.
Speaker 2 Thing Right Scott Walker, Great governor, really respect the guy, and I like what he's doing in his post elected office life as well. But everybody has a role to play in revising this country. And I think we all have to look ourselves in the mirror and ask ourselves how are we gonna make our unique contribution? And I think it's going to require governors who are defective implement of a vision that makes their states thrive. I think governor sense has done a really good job it.
Speaker 2 I think Kristi No has done a really good job of that. I think there are people who hopefully will continue to have an impact. On our culture outside of government altogether. There's a really important role for, Jason, I think that's my answer to your other question. Which III
Speaker 3 go back to 2 things that you mentioned just in passing, but I just want you to clarify your thoughts on them. 1 is you said, you would abolish the Department of Education. And I thought I've never heard anybody say that, Really? So could you just expand on that what you mean. And then the second, I'd love for you to talk about some of these supreme court decisions that have come in the last little while, specifically the abortion debate, the affirmative action debate, the rights of businesses to not service people that whose ideology they disagree with and sorry, the third point is maybe use that last part as a jumping off point.
Speaker 3 I'd love for you to understand your position on Lgbtq, the role of the trans movement, what's happening in schools. Those are the 3 kinda big chunk areas that that I think are worth talking about if you if you can just give a few minutes.
Speaker 2 There's a lot there. You have. So so so let me if I skip over something bring back. So the Department of Education. I think the federal government is not as a factual matter directly involved in education, I think it is a...
Speaker 2 Therefore a dead weight waste for money to cycle from the taxpayers to the Federal Department of Education to then disperse those funds inefficient as they do. Tilting the scales to 4 year college degrees, over choices that people might have otherwise made that are better choices for them, vocational training, 1 year 2 year programs. Using it as a c and this relates to the latter issue you asked about. To tell local schools they don't get that money unless they're adopting, what I certainly view is toxic racial and gender ideology based agendas. They use the money as a c to do it.
Speaker 2 So I've said that that department that spends about 80000000000 dollars of tax fair money. I'll shut it down. Tonight in New Hampshire, I'm laying out the anatomy of exactly how we'll shut it down. And then return that money to the states to the people put it in parents pockets. Very specifically, you have to be a state that has a school choice program in order to receive that Department of Education shutdown down dividend I think that if you're at such a state, I would also believe that those states need to write their teacher's union, teacher's contracts in a way that stop teachers from Joining teachers unions, which I think have been a destructive force on our public schools, if you're union utilizing against the public, think about who you're union against, the very kids you're supposed to represent.
Speaker 2 Now we have transparency, we have choice. If you teach it in the classroom, put it online. And then there's an interesting fact in this country where I think you guys will appreciate how bizarre this fact really is. There's not only like a failed positive correlation. There is a negative correlation an inverse correlation between how much money per student a public school spends and the actual outcomes an that that school achieves for its students.
Speaker 2 So in my version of school choice, my preferred version, it would not just be the parents get to get these vouchers and educational savings accounts to send their kids to some other their school. That's part of the story it's a first step. But I think any parent who moves, to a school that spends less per student, which we know based on the data. Is actually all else equal a better performing school as it relates to achievement. Should be able to take half the delta with them.
Speaker 2 So to say Chicago, or Pennsylvania spending 35, 40000 dollars per student. 15 miles away. You have a school spending 15 dollars to 20000 dollars per student. I think they should be able to take half the difference, that 10000 to 15000 dollar half that difference of the 20000 say 10000 dollars, they take with them. You run the math on normal investment returns.
Speaker 2 You're talking about a quarter million dollar plus graduation gift when that kid graduates from 12 and grade. So you tell me which is a better use of money. It's not even close. And I think the head of the state you've better be
Speaker 3 a great idea. That's a great you create
Speaker 1 that did is that phenomenal not.
Speaker 2 Actually another guy's an arbitrage who's a friend, but who shares similar instinct. And like, I'm like I'm a value investor. I believe in Greater.
Speaker 1 Great incentive. You just make
Speaker 2 a sense of the world.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Print.
Speaker 3 Okay. Let's move fast education.
Speaker 1 Yeah. I wanna talk about the specific the gay and the trans issue. 2 questions. 1, do you think it's normal to be gay? And there's...
Speaker 1 You have any problem with people being gay? And then...
Speaker 2 No. I don't know know
Speaker 1 much spaces etcetera. No problem. So then the second... Yeah. Of course.
Speaker 1 Talking about trans. I heard you on meet the press. Say about trans was a mental disorder, which... Yeah. You know, it wasn't the Dsm 4, I guess or whatever the latest 1 was.
Speaker 1 Just do a couple of years ago and now it's changed. So maybe explain why you think differently about those 2 things. 1, you think it's fine to be gay. But you think it's a mental disorder in all likelihood if people wanna transition?
Speaker 2 Yeah. So you know, I wanna only leave you with a good sense of where I'm at on on these issues. Right? So I think it's at least curious that we take the Lgbtq plus. Value set and and vision for what the movement stands for.
Speaker 2 It does require you to adopt simultaneously conflicting beliefs at once. Pardon? The gay rights movement was predicated on the idea, which are quite sympathetic to. That the sex of the person that you're attracted to is hardwired on the day you're born. But now with the t component of that same movement that now says your own gender, is completely fluid over the course of your own life.
Speaker 2 And I think we're not going to observe the tension between these 2 observations. I think that we're purposefully having our heads stuck in the sand. I think what's happening in many cases is somebody who claims to be trans is really just gay. And Part of what we're saying is it's not okay to be get So to answer your first question. Part of what the trans movement is effectively telling people is that it's not okay to be gay.
Speaker 2 You know who else says that a iran. Actually, Iran is a nation that if you are gay, they forced you to undergo gender conversion surgery. It's not that different than what's baked into the ideological premise of much of the trans movement. Here And so I just want you to come from the fact. There's a lot of people in the Gpu will offer surface level stuff.
Speaker 2 I mean, I've it's spent a lot of time thinking about this. Here Gender d euphoria is what I've said is a mental health disorder. I've been very precise. Let's take the intersex case out of it, filter syndrome. Jacob's syndrome, Right?
Speaker 2 Klein filter is XXY. Jacob syndrome is XYY. These are ultra rare. They exist. They're are real.
Speaker 2 For the purpose of our discussion, though under the broad trans umbrella, I'm gonna to take that out of it, because that's not a mental health disorder. That's a genetic reality. But now let's go back to the conflicting sup position. There's no gay gene, yet, the sex of the person you're attracted to, we except for civil rights purposes is heart in the day are born. Yet there are x and y chromosomes and yet your own biological sex slash gender is now completely fluid.
Speaker 2 Over the course of your life. There's tension there. And I think that tension is best explained by the way we've treated it for most of our, national history, for most of our medical history, all the way through actually Think Dsm 5, not just the 4, as a mental health condition. And I think the compassionate thing to do is not to affirm, especially when it's a kid to affirm a kids computer. I think the compassionate thing to do is to recognize that there's some other psychological struggle manifesting itself in this form.
Speaker 2 And it is cruel to affirm that kids confusion.
Speaker 1 Surgery, or hormone surgery.
Speaker 2 Hormone therapy. Exactly.
Speaker 1 I mean so you would that to when you're an adult adult 18 years old? Yes. And you would.
Speaker 2 You're in New Hampshire literally like, where I am right now.
Speaker 4 Yeah. Who
Speaker 2 are in their twenties that badly regret undergoing double mas, 1 of them underwent a his, both of them underwent
Speaker 1 people. So even if the parents and doctor
Speaker 2 they were married agreed
Speaker 1 with it, you would say they can't make that decision for the child.
Speaker 2 Just like you can't get a tattoo before the age of 18 in most what we say is a decision that you are likely to regret many in many cases it's likely to later in live. We let you make that decision as an adult. And I do believe we live in a free society. As an adult, you're free to identify how you want a free to where what you want, But kids aren't the same as adults and even among adults, there's a difference between living your life freely and expecting that everybody else. Changes their linguistic and traditional understanding in sports and traditional understanding in.
Speaker 2 Locker rooms and traditional understanding and language. That's a difference. And so I don't believe in tyranny of the majority, but I don't believe an tyranny of the minority either.
Speaker 1 Do you think this topic is over indexed on right now and is a really important top its presidency Or do you think this is like some sort of culture wars thing that this actually isn't that important to the Nash discussion should be held privately parents.
Speaker 2 I appreciate you asking that Jason is... I think I feel it's about a lot of the topics. Right? From normal I'm gonna will share the
Speaker 1 position on that? I think, like, why is this the most important topic? Yeah.
Speaker 2 This is this intros!(1 because it's a symptom. Intros!(1 interesting or only to the extent that it is a symptom of the deeper void of the deeper vacuum. And I think the mental health epidemic is not limited to gender d for, anxiety, depression, drug usage, fentanyl, suicide. These let's have the conversation more holistically, These are symptoms of the deeper void. And all I care about is running through these topic without somebody holding the line of defense by stopping us to get to a discussion about that void, say, no, this is exactly what that kid is and you're wrong to think about as mental health this disorder.
Speaker 2 I think it's unproductive. Because it makes stops us from getting the truth.
Speaker 5 Over the years, it's been the case that young people tend to orient to being counter cultural or anti establishment. Generally speaking, it's part of the psychological seasoning of a human to be against the parents against the system and ultimately to create independence for oneself. And that's typically counter to what what came before it, and it has manifested in every generation with this point of view that there is some psychological torment that has taken over the young people that is causing them to act out from Beat nicks, to hippie, to punk, to go, to imo, and every generation had some cultural representation. Is your point of view that gender euphoria is the current manifestation of that pattern of behavior that we've seen over the generations.
Speaker 2 That's not exactly my view. My view is that it's not limited to young people. I think there's something unique going on in America right now. It's true of all of us. Some sense some of this comes from self reflection, but I think it's it's true for most of us.
Speaker 2 That we're hungry to be part of something bigger than ourselves. Yet we cannot even answer what it means to be an American or what it means to believe in God or what God is. And we have come up with new false idol that substitute for that. So you don't talk about generational history. I mean, you know, Moses by the time he comes down from the mountain top.
Speaker 2 You got the golden calf. Israelites are lost in the desert they say they wanna go back and be ruled by the far. Yeah. I think the the historical trend I'm document is a slightly different 1 and maybe has a longer arc to it. Than the when you're talking about, but I but am my diagnosis is not specific to young people.
Speaker 2 It's specific to where we are in a national history. When like a bunch of blind bats in a cave, right? How a bat figure out where it is. It sends out echo location signals, sonar signals, they come back and say this is where I am. I think we human beings are wired to do the same thing.
Speaker 2 And the pillars, the walls fixed points of truth from family to faith to patriotism to hard work to individual pride. The things that used to ground us, when those things disappear, We're now sending out these signals and then nothing's coming back and so we're making up new pillars instead. And maybe 1 of them is a trans flag. And maybe 1 of them is a Ukraine flag. And maybe 1 of them is a climate cult.
Speaker 2 And maybe 1 of them is a racial intersection hierarchy. And maybe 1 of them is fentanyl. But I think that that's... III do have a deep point agreement with you and Jason, that I think we sometimes get too hung up, both sides. Maybe Republicans a lot so right now on symptoms without getting to a deeper discussion of the deeper cancer, the deeper void.
Speaker 2 That we need to fill. And that's what I'm interested.
Speaker 1 Jam brought up the Roe Wade issue. I was wondering what do you think is... The most productive path forward for the country in terms of of reasonable right to choose versus right to life argument because you personally feel that abortion should be banned. Am I correct?
Speaker 2 I am personally pro life. Your pro life.
Speaker 1 So you don't... Be able to get an abortion under any circumstances or do you have rape
Speaker 2 someone who's running for Us president responding to the question about the supreme court case. Is that roe versus wade was correct to be overturned on constitutional grounds.
Speaker 1 Okay. Fine
Speaker 2 was it was made argument.
Speaker 1 Part of your purse.
Speaker 2 But but it leads also to the path for moving forward. Which is that I think the federal government should stay out of it. And so there's a discussion amongst Republicans. I think I'm the only Republican candidate in this field, who has come out and said that I would not support a federal abortion ban of any kind. On principled ground, because to me to I am grounded in constitutional principles, and I think there's no legal basis for the federal government legislative legislature.
Speaker 2 The tenth amendment. Says that part of the American president(19 we have diversity across states. And I think this is a state's issue. Now, at the level of the states, I'm personally a believer that onboard life is live. I think that the pro life movement needs to...
Speaker 2 We need to walk the walk when it comes to being pro life, what I mean? I'm pro contraception. I'm pro adoption. I'm pro child care. I'm pro more sexual responsibility for men for God's sake we live in an era of genetic.
Speaker 2 Tests. We can actually put more responsibility. Mean meant, this doesn't have to be and should not be a men's versus women's rights issue. And nobody on our side is really talking about these issues I do because I don't think this has to be as divisive as we made it out to be. But I can almost prove to you that more people in this country share my instincts than are willing to admit it.
Speaker 2 There's a case. Your Clarence Thomas brought it up of pregnant woman, walking down the street. She's assaulted. The un born child dies as a result. I haven't met and I have many little friends.
Speaker 2 Most most of my friends grown up have been, you know, different political persuasion than I have now. I haven't been a single 1 of my liberal friends or otherwise, who says that that criminal does not deserve liability for that death. And so I I just think more
Speaker 1 leader to the stomach 6 If 1 state wants to ban it, they can ban If another state wants to have a 24 week rule, they could have a 24 week rule That's 60. That you
Speaker 2 unlike other republican looking candidates, I will not be signing a federal abortion ban states. And I remain open to persuasion if some legal scholar convince me that the Us constitution. Gives the federal Government the authority to sign that in the law, Soviet, but I have not been so convinced and I think many other principled, constitutional is. Haven't been convinced even though the other Republican field has all best every other candidate in this race said they would sign 1.
Speaker 3 What is your thought on just the gross ton of dollars that we spend on the military and defense and espionage and you know internal external security and then when it goes bump up against civil Liberties, just give us your kind of framing on how you think about those sets of issues around national level security, where and personal personal privacy to you.
Speaker 2 I'm well, I I... For more of my life than not, identified as a libertarian than a conservative. And I still have all of those libertarian instincts in my core. It's just that I care about more issues than libertarian care about. Because libertarian all about the...
Speaker 2 Relationship between the state and the individual, and I actually do care about culture and the fabric of the society outside of government too. A long way of saying I'm deeply skeptical of the National Security establishment. I was deeply skeptical of the Iraq at the time. I think I am today in retrospect. I was deeply skeptical that prisoners in Gu guantanamo Bay should have been denied constitutional due process rights.
Speaker 2 When that's exactly what en ent the justice system that we otherwise believe in. I would pardon Julian ass. I would pardon Edward Snow. I've committed to a long list of pardon of people who have taken steps to expose corruption that we otherwise would not have seen in this country. And I think part of the reason why there's a weird corporate analogy here.
Speaker 2 We're talking about companies and finding their purpose and coinbase. I think there's a version of that going on in the Us military. I think the Us military has lost its sense of purpose, actually. And so my view is the purpose of the Us military is to secure Americans on American soil to make sure that we when necessary win wars and more importantly deter wars. And I think part of what you see in the loss of, you know, people complain about woken in the military, etcetera.
Speaker 2 These are again symptoms of a deeper loss of purpose of an institution, not that much different than a company. But my view is I'm not in the same way with the immigration debate I'm I I don't engage in this. What's the cap? You know? Higher or lower.
Speaker 2 It's the wrong debate. Merit purpose, what are we achieving? I feel the same way about the. It's not a higher lower discussion. It's a what are we doing discussion?
Speaker 2 And I think there is a legitimate case for the Us to have and continue to have the strongest military in the world. But I think that d digitizing that military to fight wars that are really deflect reflection tactics often for our own ailments at home. I think it has been a mistake. And we're at risk of making those same mistakes again, right now, most permanently in Ukraine, unless we learn from those past mistakes.
Speaker 4 Wanna ask you about the division within the Republican party on this, specifically Ukraine. So at turning point, what you just spoke about at and I think you did very well in the... Stop poll there. You had Tucker interviewing Mike Pence. Ask him why should we prioritize Ukraine over our own cities, that are increasingly broken down.
Speaker 4 You've got homeless people living on the streets. You've got this price of drug addiction. You've got rampant crime. You've got schools that are terrible. And yet, Ukraine seems to be this fix fiction, of the Uni party in Washington and and Pence gave this totally dun ahead answer something like that's not my concern.
Speaker 4 Which I guess his apologies said afterwards that, well, no, He was talking about something else. He wasn't saying that American cities weren't his concern. Which even if you grant that was the case, means that he wasn't really paying attention to tucker question, but then you also had Tim Scott, say something, it was definitely better phrase than what Pence said basically said that he thought it was a good idea for us to be giving. All this money each Ukraine because degrading, Russia's military was a good deal for United States. You know, by which, degrade, I assume means killing Russian boys.
Speaker 4 I knew heard Lindsey Graham say the sort of thing. Then I had this Republican Polls named Patrick Ra, who I didn't really know before, but he's apparently a republican polls stories got Sla, Ukrainian as bio. I'm not quite sure what's motivating that, but he tweeted at me saying that Ukraine is the like number 17 on a list of Gop voter priorities to bite efforts by the likes of Carlson and Sa to make it a thing. Notice how it almost never gets brought on the trail unless Tucker is there. My response to him will to post a quote for Mitch Mcconnell saying that Ukraine is the number 1 priority of the Gop.
Speaker 4 Yeah. Right. I'm like, you're making my point for me. I know that it's number 17 in the eyes of voters in our party in terms of what they think we be focused on, But it's number 1. In the minds of Mitch Mcconnell and pence and Scott and Nikki Haley, and, you know, Lindsey Graham, these people are obsessed with this idea.
Speaker 4 So I guess, you know, a, what is your reaction to that? B, how are we gonna change this? I mean, it just seems like there's something fundamentally broken in our party? When the base understands that we should not be focused on Ukraine focused on our own borders, our own cities. As opposed to some faraway lands borders and cities.
Speaker 4 And then also in that same turning point poll 95 percent of the attendees that conference were opposed to Us involvement in Ukraine. It was this single highest number for anything they pulled on. I think Trump got like, an 85 percent approval. Opposition to Ukraine got 95 percent. So clearly, there is a fundamental divide between what the establishment or elite of the party thinks and what the base thinks.
Speaker 4 Yep. What is your explanation for that? And how does that ever get solved?
Speaker 2 I mean, how are we gonna fix it? I'm gonna give you a fast answer, David, It has to do with? Why we're doing what we're doing? I wanna be elected the next president(19 I think I will be, and I think reflecting the will of the people in the way this country is governed. Is part of how our system is actually supposed to work, both in the primary and in the general election.
Speaker 2 And so you I know we're sitting in different seats, but I'm sit in the seat that I am now precisely because, I think somebody needs to actually step up and fix it when most of the Republican party has locked stock and barrel for all their of their criticisms of Biden on the most important foreign policy matter of right now, have lock and barrel adopted, what is effectively, the Biden position, which is mysterious and it's interesting. Now, I think that it has become a a sort of a a fix fiction, not because these candidates, I think have arrived at this viewpoint independently through reasoning their way to it, but just understanding that that's what they are supposed to say in the tradition of a party that was his historically based on projecting hard power through deter the Ussr, not recognizing the fact that people sometimes seem to forget this fact. The Ussr doesn't exist anymore. And Nato, which is created to contained the Ussr has now expanded far more after the fall of the Ussr than it did before, which is itself a symptom of a Republican party that still sometimes that's not sure it's like a jerk?
Speaker 2 It's it's it's a muscle memory.
Speaker 4 And what about the influence of the military industrial complex? Do you think somehow like related to donors like, what do you mean...
Speaker 2 So I'm I'm I'm a I'm very open minded. It's 2 and I'm getting the signal of that. So we we're going into this event where we're meeting with parents of kids who who have died as a consequence of fentanyl, and I don't want to keep them waiting longer than than we need to. But If you guys are down to do this again. There's been a
Speaker 7 lot of fun
Speaker 1 Great 90 minutes. It's fantastic. We can
Speaker 2 let me just answer David's last. What dave what was your last question?
Speaker 3 Wait, no. I have better question. Just add last question. Number 1, are you vaccinated against Covid? Number 2, what do you think of fauci cheat?
Speaker 3 And what could we have done differently? I mean, you're a man of science. So I'm just curious what you think about the whole thing?
Speaker 1 Great question.
Speaker 2 So I am vaccinated against Covid. Had I had the facts that I do now as a young thankfully healthy male, I would not have actually chosen to get vaccinated? I think that Anthony Fauci, the betray science, by substituting the scientific method, which depends on free speech, you know been debate an inquiry with authority, which is actually fundamentally anti scientific at its core. And I think 1 of our main lessons to have learned from the pandemic And I hope we do learn it. In the future is that it is precisely in times of emergency that free speech becomes most important.
Speaker 2 I think if we had been able to debate in the open, the merits of lockdown downs for children. We would not have locked down our schools. I think we had been able to debate the open what the origin of the pandemic was. A lab in Wuhan appears to be the overwhelming. It's the truth.
Speaker 2 I mean, we know that that's exactly the most... Likely the correct explanation.
Speaker 3 It's in the name.
Speaker 2 It it really is. But it is a name you couldn't have
Speaker 3 said at the at that
Speaker 2 you couldn't call it, you couldn't name the unspeakable city for which the virus originally So I think 1 of the top lessons is, free speech and open debate, the path the truth runs through that. Science depends on the free exchange of ideas. That's who we are and The beauty our country is founded on that very principle. It's in the first amendment for a reason.
Speaker 5 That we'll we'll let
Speaker 3 you get to your event, but I just wanna say thank you for being incredibly dynamic and open and honest. It's really great to have. Guys like you to talk to.
Speaker 2 It's I appreciate you guys. If you guys wanna do it again, I a lot of fun too.
Speaker 1 So Just wanna add.
Speaker 2 I got rock.
Speaker 1 Thanks for not being... Like, political politicians speak and being so honest and taking on every single topic. We asked you
Speaker 3 single topic. That's
Speaker 1 really. Candid. I think, you did a great job.
Speaker 2 I appreciate you guys.
Speaker 1 Appreciate you
Speaker 2 take care. Guys.
Speaker 3 Thanks Day.
Speaker 5 We didn't talk about this. Did you guys mention where you are or is that a flow.
Speaker 1 Based on the number of buttons here, I can tell you. I'm in... I I you know what? I can't talk to myself Because, you know, did I ever tell you the story about? Years ago when I in Italy, and the stalker.
Speaker 3 You fucking told everybody you were there. You... No, I didn't. Everybody were.
Speaker 7 I
Speaker 1 was at Cha beach club I up the much the ocean.
Speaker 3 It was ridiculous.
Speaker 1 I took a picture of the ocean, and in the corner of 1 of the towels was the logo of Cha beach Club. And some guys found that logo on the towel, did a Google image reverse search, found the beach club. That Cha jamal part of, and then showed it up at the beach club. Well I always drinking hundred 50 dollar bottles per sec on mont out to pitch me their startup up. So I don't wanna say exactly where I am, but I'm in Italy.
Speaker 1 Where are you guys?
Speaker 3 Me Sa are a shouting distance from each other We're about to see each other after this.
Speaker 4 Ever tell you guys a story about... Last summer when I was in Italy. Cha and I were walking down the streets of Milan. Yeah. Ever tell the story?
Speaker 4 No.
Speaker 1 No. He didn't tell.
Speaker 4 This was, like the last time that Jake Allen and F we're having a major feud, and it looked like the Pod was maybe about to break up. So I mean, for real.
Speaker 1 Break number 1.
Speaker 4 Time Yeah. This is break up number 1. Right, brick and her 2 or 3, I don't know. And you guys are definitely feud. So we're walking down the street, and all a sudden some body...
Speaker 4 Stops us, and he... This is like a fan from... I don't know. Like...
Speaker 1 Are you from the Australia.
Speaker 3 Australia. He was he's Australia.
Speaker 4 It's from Australia. Remember this.
Speaker 3 He's australia.
Speaker 4 Is from Australia visiting Milan.
Speaker 2 Hi, Mike. Are you come off?
Speaker 4 And he stops us in the street and takes a photo and the whole thing. And as we're walking away, Jam says we better make this thing work as I like the Extremist.
Speaker 7 It can't go back. Face.
Speaker 4 You guys better not screw this up because I like
Speaker 1 being. Delicate
Speaker 0 sounds. Fame.
Speaker 1 Or be right. Who who knows? Hey for people who didn't get the joke last week, I love Free burke. I'm trying to develop a deep meaningful relationship with Free burke. Hello love free.
Speaker 1 What do we think of a? Let's get back to the, you know, brass tacks here. R versus Vi. We've now had 2 of the top 5 candidates and Chris Christie has agreed to come on. The moo put me in touch.
Speaker 1 I have to
Speaker 3 be honest with you, R and he are more similar than they are different. On a lot of topics, I you know, the contours, I think are different on a few very specific ones obvious. But It's like these outsider candidates, I think have like a... They're just a... They're a breath of fresh air because I think and vi said it right, the he and Rf.
Speaker 3 They have nothing to lose, so they just tell you what they think. They don't have to memorize anything because what they think is what they think. And so you just consistently get the stream of consciousness, And the more and more I hear from these kinds of candidates, the more and more they make sense and j against the establishment candidates it's very. Start. Would you consider
Speaker 1 from Sa you know, as being the sort of precursor to these 2 non traditional candidates. So now we have 3 non traditional candidates in the mix, Trump, Vi vic and Rf and they all are shoot from the hip. Here's what I honestly think. And maybe more moderate and pragmatic in terms of their positions?
Speaker 4 Well, sure. I mean, Trump ran for office for president without having ever run for office before. And so... Yeah.
Speaker 1 A Democrat. He's a democrat who ran as a Republican too.
Speaker 4 I amen. And he moved the Republican parliament
Speaker 6 in a
Speaker 4 bunch of ways that worked... Totally new. Trump's lasting impact, I think is gonna be on the republican party. I mean, he moved the Republican party from an open borders, completely free trade, totally sort of party...
Speaker 1 War mon neo.
Speaker 4 Knee jerk york mil, Neo con to being anti war wanting have strong borders Being at least skeptical trade at least with China, if not other countries. And I think he hasn't wanted to mess with entitlements. He understands us a third rail. And very much against, like the Paul Ryan wanting to touch those at least in a non bipartisan way. I think that for their republicans to take on those issues by themselves.
Speaker 4 I think he understands us suicide.
Speaker 1 Lose votes when you start taking on entitlements.
Speaker 3 And I... Think that what Trump also did, which is really interesting is that it cascade a wave of self reflection in a lot of other western countries. So I think Italy's more right as a result, the Uk went right. Spain looks like it's about to tip right. The Dutch actually just lost their election because of national border issues.
Speaker 3 Or, you know, they dissolve their government. So
Speaker 1 there's like a real clear nationalism. Would you say?
Speaker 4 It's more of the nationalist inflection as opposed the global. I mean,
Speaker 3 That's right.
Speaker 4 The Overt 10 window, I think changed quite a bit with Trump in the mix. Because now you actually had this much more America first nationals orientation as the alternative to this sort of global, whether it's neo liberal ism, or neo conservatism. Those 2 things have more in common with each other than they do with this more nationalist populist approach. Right.
Speaker 1 Free, what did you think? What was your take? I mean, R obviously concerns you a bit. Because of the... I don't wanna use the conspiracy word, but let's just call it, maybe, you know, his open minded to He's open minded to different theories.
Speaker 1 So where do you stand on R k in relation to the V today? K?
Speaker 5 Obviously, I I think he's graft his narrative in a way that can be broadly appealing and as as I mentioned in our text stream I think also appeals to the Trump base, in a way, it's a very smart campaign. I think that the the strategy, the the positioning, everything feels like it's hitting the mood of the moment. And you know, I I would argue like, you could probably call any election cycle, any campaign, 1 of 2 things. It's a promise of what can I do for you? Or how can I go and destroy the system that did bad for you?
Speaker 5 And Trump R... And by the way, the higher the magnitude of that statement, the more appealing the candidate is, I think the v is doing a great job. Hitting a reasonably high magnitude on the... You know, the system has failed us. We need to go and fix these problems kind of moment, and and it's really good, But I think it's really good for call it the audience that's engaged in the intellectual debate around it.
Speaker 1 Not that you
Speaker 3 vote for Vi.
Speaker 5 At this point, I need to spend a little more time with the Scientists to be honest. And understand where where he sits, I I obviously have deep concerns about Biden.
Speaker 1 What would your concerns on Biden B, his cognitive issues? Or the out of control spending.
Speaker 5 I I don't think he's running the country and I think that those who are... There's absolutely no accountability and discipline in what's going on with risk. Affect spending, as I mentioned. The vector did not appeal to me in resolving that concern either by the way. He thinks we're gonna grow our way out of it, which is part of the premise of vector modern monetary theory, which I think is a flood.
Speaker 5 So you
Speaker 1 still don't have a candidate in terms of controlling spending. Yeah.
Speaker 5 Yeah. Look, I I think the problem with the vi vet is he's not gonna be appealing to the masses because he's so smart and so articulate. That it doesn't have the the the Trump basics. The Trump basics are insult the bad guy, call yourself the best thing in the world, make jokes.
Speaker 1 I Peter might be over that. I think people might be over it. I well a good are people over it? The bullying, the name calling, the the bombastic Trump nature, Do you think people are over it? You think that's gonna burn people out this election cycle?
Speaker 4 Well, not if you look at the polls.
Speaker 6 They're not
Speaker 4 hard on the republican party. I think in and the general, they might... I mean, look, I think right now, it looks like we're on track. To have a Biden Trump rem match. And right now, Biden probably looks like he's gonna win.
Speaker 4 Barring a recession happening or the Ukrainian side collapsing in in the war.
Speaker 2 But January sixth indictment. I mean,
Speaker 1 I mean, that indictment dropping sounds pretty, you know, like another bombshell. So You think there's any chance to with them?
Speaker 4 No. No. No no. No.
Speaker 1 Okay. So what's your favorite moment you know, from this discussion? Was were there was there a standout moment for you? Max where thought?
Speaker 5 Sorry. I wanna your question. Sham, would you vote for? Are you still an Rf case camp or are you kind of still open minded about everything?
Speaker 3 I wasn't sure what his campaign was about, and and I come away pretty meaningfully intrigued about what he had to say. I think that there are some fundamental issues that R has me on that I wanted Vi beck to own and he he flirt with him, but he didn't quite own them.
Speaker 1 Such as.
Speaker 3 I think that the just like the d construction of the military industrial complex was is so definitive. You know, F k, and it was it was almost quite there with vi quebec, but not quite there. So I wish would I wish she would own that. I think that the d construction of the Department of Education I need to think more about, but some of his ideas are frankly more compelling. The pro life pro choice thing, I think he's very complicated and I think you can go to this place of saying let the states choose, but I I'm just not sure whether other...
Speaker 3 That's the right ultimate of its solution. Mh. And, you know, proposing some federal legislation.
Speaker 1 Would you wanna end up on that? You would wanna end up like Europe, like a certain number of weeks federally and then maybe some local laws around abortion and right to choose? I think that...
Speaker 3 There is just like, you you have to fund them... If if you believe it in personal freedom, I think having an arbitrary definition of what a person is and then what that freedom means. To me is already the slippery slope. And so I have a real issue with that, But I also agree with him about the actual decay of American society. You know, the lack of...
Speaker 3 Religious institutions and the lack of family
Speaker 1 and purpose. Those 2
Speaker 3 things above all others I think are tearing this country apart.
Speaker 1 Because people substitute something for it was this point. Right?
Speaker 3 It's leaving people incredibly empty. And so I just think that you have to have some of these... Fundamental protections.
Speaker 1 Sex, what were your favorite during this or or or moments where you think he stood out or we shine? Moments where you maybe have some fundamental disagreement?
Speaker 4 Well, okay. There's a few issues, let me respond to. So in terms of the vague versus R junior. I think we're Kennedy really shines is like Jam jamal said, when he talks about the military industrial complex. And I would say more generally, R has this critique about regulatory capture, which he describes as the marriage of state power and corporate greed.
Speaker 4 And included in that is what's happened to the Fda, Big pharma and the whole government's response on Covid. And then he wraps in censorship. As being the way that this
Speaker 3 Rf case thoughts are very...
Speaker 4 Marriage of corporate greed and state power, the way it defends itself that and that's unacceptable. So I think like on those issues, I don't think anybody speaks as deeply as Rf junior. Now... When it comes to the list, if if you were to like, list out all the issues and where Vi is and where I am, it's a pretty close match. I mean, I'm not...
Speaker 4 Align with him completely on every issue, but I think it would be pretty close. And I do really appreciate where he's coming from on Ukraine. He's not afraid to just come right out and say the truth, which is this is not an important enough American interest be spending hundreds of billions of year on. I wish we had more time
Speaker 1 What an amazing...
Speaker 4 Actually dove into that. And particularly, I wanted him to explain what was happening in the party because there is a divide within the party. Between these like oxygenation and sort of more establishment, republicans like Mcconnell like Scott like Pence,
Speaker 1 The war machine.
Speaker 4 The war machine. And then people like him.
Speaker 1 And Trump
Speaker 4 And and you put Trump in this category too who are resisting that. So I would like to hear more about that.
Speaker 1 Did you think of the moment where I kinda pinned him? And I said, would you... You so you wouldn't defend Ukraine, but you would defend Taiwan and he said yes, for the next... 5 years I would defend Taiwan because of the semiconductor. I mean, I've never heard a candidate, say something that pragmatic.
Speaker 4 Here's my interpretation.
Speaker 1 I described cut throat.
Speaker 4 Well, it is pragmatic. What he's basically saying is that America right now is dependent on these chips. These very sophisticated high tech chips. I mean, chips. And and not just like the low end ones, the high end chips.
Speaker 1 The high that are
Speaker 4 made in Taiwan. And that is a vital American interest and until we alleviate ourselves or we ourselves off that... Dependency by making them ourselves or securing some other supply, then we need Taiwan and so therefore, we cannot allow to fall into Chinese hands, I'm saying a lot more than he did, but it's kind of an an argument like saying chips is the new oil. And as long as this is a critical input our. Economy We have To Secure our supply.
Speaker 4 I Can Difference
Speaker 1 Being Bush Never said. We're Going to the Middle East for Oil. He Said We're Going There For democracy. So That's where I thought was, like, the very candid moment they're sex.
Speaker 4 Yeah. But what what always happens is that when America has a vital interest, you always... Cloak it in liberal rhetoric about rights and freedom and democracy and that kind of thing So what's frequently driving the decision is American interest. Underneath. He's being explicit about it.
Speaker 4 What he's basically saying is as long as question. Yeah. As long as America's got this dependency and we need Taiwan, we've better defend it and protect it from falling into Chinese hands. But once we don't have that interest, than we don't. I can understand that.
Speaker 2 It was wild.
Speaker 1 It was wild. I mean, refreshing for me. Ivan thought actually, was a highlight of the discussion.
Speaker 4 A couple other things he touched on. So we talked about the other candidates. I think he's being not dis, but maybe a little bit unfair to the des. I think there's no question that Des alone has been single out by Trump and not just Trump but Trump's surrogate gets to be relentlessly bashed on. And this happens on social media it happens in speeches and talks all this kind of stuff So they are going after the Scientists, and then that has an effect.
Speaker 1 For a reason, he's number 2.
Speaker 4 And Trump clearly has... Peg him is the biggest threat, and that's why they're targeting him. So that does have an impact. The advantage that someone like Vi has in a way is that he doesn't have a record as an elected official. And so he can just go out there and speak freely on these issues.
Speaker 4 And like, I described on the show with him. He goes out there and inserts himself in the conversation. When it
Speaker 1 it makes his
Speaker 4 issue is going viral, he jumps in and I think it's that's very important that he's doing it so quickly because if you're a candidate and you wait till the next day, that and then the new cycle moves on. You missed it. Right?
Speaker 2 So yeah. Timing this.
Speaker 4 He's timing it perfectly, so he hits the sweet spot. There's only 1 way to do it, which is not to have surrogate not to have a process, like, because with
Speaker 1 the whole portfolio cover. Yeah.
Speaker 4 Well, it's the same thing with our portfolio companies. Right? They run it through, like, all these P people and, like, a P agents. See and it gets reviewed And by the time by the time it goes through his tenth draft is too late. It doesn't go viral.
Speaker 4 So he's running a social media campaign and it's very effective. Now I think that Des is running a different kind of campaign. Des actually has a record. I think is a fantastically successful record as being the most successful governor in the country, running the most successful state in the country. So he's out there with this idea that listen, let's make America Florida.
Speaker 4 Yes. So that's what he's campaigning on. And so he is going out there with kind of a predetermined agenda, And a play stump speech, a playbook. And it's different than someone like Who's letting the issues come to him. Mh.
Speaker 4 And then he's responding as the issues come up. Where... Vi is living off the land. And and that is All of
Speaker 1 that is free media for him.
Speaker 4 Free its earned media and did the same thing. In 2016. Right? Every day, he would figure out, like, what are the issues today? And then you go And speak about them.
Speaker 4 And, you know, you go all the way back to Pat, Buchanan and working for Richard Nixon, back and I think it's a 72 or something like that where every morning, Buchanan and there's a couple other speech writers that open the newspaper and find an issue or 2. And they would go to Nixon and say, here's your talking points, you know? And so they would find an issue that back in those days was going viral, and have the candidate speak to it. So they were nimble. And I think that's what they were doing.
Speaker 4 And if you wanna go viral in the social media area, that's what you have to do. You have to lean into the issues or people are talking about that day. And and this is the thing is that, I think Vi knows how to do that. Trump clearly knows how to do it.
Speaker 1 Knows how to do it?
Speaker 4 R definitely knows how to do.
Speaker 1 Rf
Speaker 2 care social money every day.
Speaker 1 They're tracking topic native, and that's the difference. Free, did you have a... Highlight or a great moment or 2 from the fact things that made you go, I really appreciate this person or candidate during the discussion.
Speaker 5 What I appreciate was that we didn't see him like fall down on any topics, and I I think that his... Ability to go through the full discourse with us for however, long we went 90 minutes
Speaker 1 40? No.
Speaker 2 Hour 40.
Speaker 5 He says a lot. You know, Rf junior did the same. But again, it's a stark j position from what I have seen Biden do in terms of interview format. T. Is that...
Speaker 5 His interviews are edited, They're short. And. Yeah. To be able to have this brett, but also have the data and be able to pull it from the top of his head and not have speaking notes we gave him no questions ahead of time. There's no agenda.
Speaker 1 Course not.
Speaker 5 And I I think it it's great to see a candidate who can engage in that level of discourse, which was important and impressive for me. I just hope it's broadly appealing. And this by the way, I just wanna repeat something I've said many times in the past. There are 2 things I hate about politics besides the relationship to a growing government. The first is that people pick politics as a career And I think that that's ridiculous.
Speaker 5 I think people in a democracy should have a private life and then they should rotate into being... Civil servants and go and serve father's. That's right. And so they were... You know, had they had their jobs and their businesses and everything and they would rotate in and then they would rotate out a government the fact that people can be a politician for 30 years is ridiculous and I think it leads to all of the dis that have driven to a large government.
Speaker 5 What I appreciate about Vi quebec and R junior is that they come at this from and even Trump, they come at this from private life. And they take their turn in government and rotate out. And that's why I I did not get him to answer the question around what what he do besides being president if it didn't work out, what's he gonna do next? The second thing I I don't like about.
Speaker 4 The way they're just on that point, there's less speculation about that within Republican circles. This is something... Could we just enough time to get into.
Speaker 7 Let me just finish it. Yeah. Let me
Speaker 5 just finish it and wanna talk about it. So... Sorry. Yeah. Let let's come back it.
Speaker 5 But the second thing is just money in politics. I And I hate that you can raise money and get votes, just the general concept that you buy ad space and that you get people to change their vote, I think is the most of that.
Speaker 7 Yeah. I do. But I think it's so
Speaker 5 fucked out. But what I like about what we just did, is we actually had a conversation with the candidate and people can just listen to the conversation. That's the old town square that Sa talks about that doesn't exist anymore, because everything is chopped up and then sold as media bytes on paid streams, whereas what we just did as a free conversation with a guy that anyone can continue and listened to and learn about him. And that's... What I found most compelling it's it's is we had a real conversation instead of watching a 30 second ad bite.
Speaker 3 What's the rumors Sa. Yes.
Speaker 5 So sorry. Go ahead, Sex.
Speaker 4 The knock on the vague is that he's basically a Trump surrogate. And I mean, Trump has said good things about. Trump likes him to be out there clearly. I mean, trump has all but said that. So the idea is that Vi is out there.
Speaker 4 And initially, he's doing this less now, but early on, He was just launching broad side after broad side on Des. And so the idea is that he's out there a Trump surrogate attacking the people Trump wants him to attack. On the whole saying that things about Trump, and that he'll be rewarded for that somehow.
Speaker 1 A cabinet position or vice
Speaker 4 position, people even now saying Vp because he's doing so well or maybe he gets an an endorsement for a senate run or something like that. So if we had more time, I would ask them about this, like, A no. But...
Speaker 1 That's why I asked and specifically, how much time have you spent with Trump and when's the last time you talk to him. And he was honest about that. When only we spent, like, Had dinner with him before I was even a candidate. So. I'm wondering if there's some Clan agreement with them through some back channel for him to do that his own accord.
Speaker 4 I think... Well, clearly his answer would be no. I'm not a surrogate of my own candidate. And he probably is. So my guess on it is that you can go out there and act like a surrogate, knowing that Trump's gonna like it.
Speaker 4 And then you'll be rewarded. You don't need to have an explicit deal to understand that that would work out for you in that way. I respond to Free perks point. So Free, you said, you don't like the money aspect of politics, and you don't like the sort of career aspect of of politics. I think what we're seeing with candidates like a vague.
Speaker 4 You or R Junior or Trump is candidates who are bucking those 2 trends. I mean, clearly these are not Yeah. Lifelong politicians they have maybe had a lifelong intros!(1 in politics, but they're not like lifelong office holders or tenants for office. And then on the money side, what they're all showing is something that we all know from our portfolio companies, which is that earned media, is so much more valuable than paid
Speaker 7 idea. Totally.
Speaker 4 Paid me a cost of fortune and it doesn't really work. No 1 really wants to look at advertising. They block it out. So you spend a lot of money on advertising and it never really gets you much. Compared to earned media, which is you figure out a way to insert yourself, in the news cycle by appealing to people on issues that are being talked about.
Speaker 4 You figure out how to kinda hit your wagon to... Like you said, jason, a trending topic And that's what all 3 of these candidates have done and it works so well. And I think that sort of the career politicians who are proceeding in this very kinda of playbook way, which is We're gonna go out. We're gonna raise the most money from donors that we're gonna buy the most Tv time. And when we're gonna be on message.
Speaker 4 I mean, we're only gonna talk about the things we wanna talk about. The problem is that doesn't work anymore because earned media is so much more valuable than paid media.
Speaker 5 Well, look, I hope that's a trend and I hope it flush the money out of the system. And that candidates win based on the merit of the conversation that they have in earned media instead of buying more ad space on paid media and that it changes the game. And I hope that the laws changed too. And I also hope that the laws change with respect to career politicians and term limits and all that sort of stuff, because this whole career system and money in this thing is what's driving
Speaker 1 So understand 1 of
Speaker 5 the contributors do inclusion and government spending, and government accountability and all the nonsense it goes on. And I I would love to see a change.
Speaker 4 I think there Are media is so valuable now that I think candidates who try to stay on there. Message on their agenda is gonna cost too much money. It's basically an unsustainable path. I would urge all the Republican candidates. Including Des just to get out there.
Speaker 4 By the way, Des is a tremendously smart man. I mean, he went to...
Speaker 1 Where is
Speaker 2 he Harvard?
Speaker 1 He's not on All in.
Speaker 5 He's a lawyer.
Speaker 1 Crazy he? Yeah.
Speaker 4 To me fair I haven't an asked yet, But... Why?
Speaker 1 Yeah. Nice on. Chris Christie is coming in on.
Speaker 4 I'm asking to do something. We had all difficulties. Remember that It didn't go over
Speaker 2 to welch.
Speaker 1 Just for the record, the moo who loves the fact that... A unit of time has been named after him from usa sa.
Speaker 4 Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 Any 11 day period is known as a moo. So if you have the eleventh of. A a. It's.
Speaker 5 Yeah. Wants to
Speaker 2 hear like that.
Speaker 1 But he he literally intros!(1 me to governor Chris Christie over text. So I'm in touch with Chris he's coming on the pod. So that's 3 of the top 6 or 5 in terms of polling.
Speaker 4 I'll ask to santos just to come.
Speaker 1 We never get biden because he'll fall asleep. Don't think Biden can do 45 minutes with without. Don't told the guy that might
Speaker 5 show up. Let's see if we can get it him it. I think he may, you know, he may Biden. I I don't know. Let's let's not...
Speaker 5 I
Speaker 3 can ask. Yeah. I can ask.
Speaker 1 I mean, let's try and get Biden. I mean it it'd be great half an hour with him,
Speaker 5 and he can have a real conversation with us, I'd be thrilled. Be really interesting.
Speaker 4 Well, Bio did freed Si sequoia. It was an interview that was pretty much localized to talking about. For policy in Ukraine.
Speaker 1 He... And he also did that other woman on Msnbc. They're all canned. He gets the questions ahead of time. Yeah.
Speaker 1 And then they edit it for him. So he gets post production. Yeah. Which, you know, then you could shape the thing, however you want and shame on the media for doing that honestly to the left media You're not helping the democracy here in the United States by, you know, putting the fix in for Biden. If he can't do the interview, If he can't handle an hour at least.
Speaker 1 And could he be the president? I mean, let's be honest here.
Speaker 5 Well, they'll get the ratings?
Speaker 4 Just in terms of debrief. Was there anything we want to say about the the whole banking crisis? I appreciate that he tried to find common ground with us.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Alright, Craig. I nearly
Speaker 5 made a joke that you were now gonna do a fundraiser form after that.
Speaker 1 No. I mean, listen. You... He said it himself. I'm gonna respond to everything.
Speaker 1 1 out of a hundred times, I may change my position based on new information. Which by the way, we do hear every week. Every week, we all listen to each other We have vibrant debate and sometimes we change our positions. Know, like, I think that's what any reasonable person does go ahead say...
Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, look, I don't think we were that far apart from him on this whole banking crisis. I mean, I think we all agree that there should be no bailout for the shareholders and the bond holders of these banks that are poorly managed and go under. And I think that the bank did endorse a proposal, which we... I think Jason you and I had both come up with, which was to have a higher level of Fdic insurance
Speaker 1 Brand
Speaker 4 Business Banking. I think It was Like 10000000 Or Something Like That.
Speaker 1 And You Know Include That In the Cost Of The Insurance.
Speaker 4 Yeah. Exactly. It's just paid by the premiums of these banks for banking insurance. And Vi had at this point about, you know, if Roku is stupid enough to keep 500000000 in a checking account, and the bank goes under, maybe they should lose it, it's like, okay. My goal is not to save Roku if they're stupid enough to manage the money that point.
Speaker 1 To save the local school.
Speaker 4 Really, the only difference is that... And I think Free you hit the nail on the head is when you have a bank run underway, you have to stop it before the panic can spread.
Speaker 1 Contagion is real.
Speaker 4 The contagion was absolutely real. I don't think people at outside silicon Valley could understand that because They weren't in those Friday morning emergency phone calls and board meetings that were happening. So We know it was... It they had bernie moved so far beyond Sv at that point, we had founders moving their money out of first for Republic and all these other banks.
Speaker 1 Thursday and Friday
Speaker 4 On Thursday, and Friday and they wanted to go to the top 4 banks and if it wasn't a Si. It wasn't good enough.
Speaker 1 If it wasn't called Silicon Valley Bank, This would have been a totally different thing. And if it hadn't been us raising alone, Let's be self aware. People hate Silicon Valley, tech. There's a contingent of people. Who hates silicon valley attack and rich people, and they were just gl.
Speaker 1 You know, there's 20 percent of the sort of far left communist, socialist, you know, idiots who mid... Elizabeth Warren, whoever's, who are just like, oh, great. Silicon Valley is getting kicked in the nuts. They were thrilled to see it.
Speaker 4 Right.
Speaker 1 That was that was sure fried, We gotta wrap. Hey.
Speaker 5 Pull up these pictures real quick. This is your 5 second science corner. Look, these are photos taken Mars yesterday. How cool is this? Alright That's all I had to say.
Speaker 1 Those... That's exactly the chances of taking a photo on Mars are 3000000721 tours. If you can see for this 1 looks just like... So
Speaker 3 think those are from uranus.
Speaker 5 Yeah. Those are from.
Speaker 1 Very similar to the photos I took on my ears last night. Yes. I took my iphone 14, and I squat down and took pictures of these jingle barrel into a mirror and I said, look look
Speaker 3 at what's going on down there.
Speaker 1 These these boulders are very similar to the ding berries. What what are
Speaker 3 these paint my balls and a tape but not it my take.
Speaker 1 If you look at those this dissimilar to my huge balls.
Speaker 5 You guys can't put the bell.
Speaker 1 Oh. Love you guys.
Speaker 5 Do you think that's cool that there's these cameras on mars?
Speaker 1 It is day. Yes. Amazing incredible
Speaker 5 And how cool they mean
Speaker 1 Feel like we should have 2 app episodes sweet And there were so many good topics for us to talk about, but listen of
Speaker 5 the the topics. But... Yeah, that was good. Good meeting with love
Speaker 3 you guys.
Speaker 1 Love you guys. Hey, if you guys are around, you know? And anyone wanna to
Speaker 5 guess of wine and some paws
Speaker 1 awesome some wine later. Maybe next week or something who knows. Maybe we all get together in person, Have a glass of wine. I see you soon. I love you guys.
Speaker 1 Job for the architect himself, the dictator, the sultan of science. Obviously, after today's performance, I am still. The world's greatest moderator. This has been another episode of the all in podcast. We're still together.
Speaker 1 The band is still together producing Hot tracks. We'll see you next week. Come at At you. 2 for Tuesday, tiers for fears. Everybody wants to rule the world on the clinic with that.
Speaker 1 Next time, Sure. Chris Christie coming at you. 100 Z board Zoo we'll see
Speaker 4 you to love you guys.
Speaker 1 Bye. Hello, guys.
Speaker 6 We'll let your winner ride. Rain man, David Sack.
Speaker 4 That said Open sources to the fans and they've just gone crazy.
Speaker 6 We should
Speaker 5 just
Speaker 6 get a room and just have big huge Dory because they're all useless it's like this like sexual tension but they just need to release her mountain.
Speaker 1