Summary 5 Keys to Becoming an In-Demand Copywriter (#5) - YouTube (Youtube) www.youtube.com
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Speaker 0 Right? So we've got another question from Myra today. What do you attribute your transformation from working steady copywriter to in demand copywriter 2. And I think we've kinda of discussed, we had a lot of the same things really came down to, like 5 themes and we kind of have our own take on them. Number 1, for me is definitely networking.
Speaker 0 And when I think about how I've network, like it's not your typical showing up to an event, shake a bunch of hands, exchange, business cards and All that stuff In fact, I haven't been to a conference in 3 years. And before that, it was like another 2 years. I've only gone to 2 conferences. Since I started the business in 20 15. So it's definitely not how I've been networking for me, it's more about since I would almost call it like like like a like a network where we exchange value.
Speaker 0 So when I think about how I built my business, a lot of my business comes in through referrals from people who don't do what I do, but they do something somewhat complimentary. So like a content marketer an Seo agency. Sometimes like a designer for example. And what what I've done is I'm like a big part of my process. If if I'm on a sales or like a discovery call, 1 of the questions I'll always ask is...
Speaker 0 So, like, what else are you guys working on? Are you trying to find anyone who does something else? And What's happened is, you know, I've been I've been doing this. I'm in the Saas business now for 7 years, I know who the top content people are, who the top designers are. And so I make it a point to make sure that I'm connecting prospects with those types of people, good people.
Speaker 0 And this obviously does a few things that work in my favor for 1, I'm adding value to the client immediately before there's been any, like exchange of of money or anything. So I think this increases the likelihood that We're actually going to end up working. Together I don't have any hard data on this, but the fact that I'm useful from the very beginning is obviously good. So then the person that I'm sending them to, obviously, they're going to be noticing a pattern that they're making a lot of money off the fact that I keep sending them. Work.
Speaker 0 And as we all know, like the law of reciprocity, they're going to start to feel like maybe I should start sending josh some work when someone mentions copy. Or there's an opportunity for copy, and that's... That that happens like we're we're always sending clients back and forth. Another thing that happens is if I send a prospect to a good contact and they have a good experience over there and they're still in need of copy. I know that the person that I've sent them to is also going to say good things about my abilities.
Speaker 0 And so I'm sure they help me close. Work. It kind of acts as like, we're we're almost like creating, like a a little like net of value around them and we're all And it's not, like, done in a malicious or manipulative way. We're just... We all believe in each other's work, and so they're going to say nice things about me.
Speaker 0 And that obviously helps me. Helps me close the deals as well. So, like, top of mind, people like Kale Moore, Brooklyn, Nash, Adrian Barnes, like, these are people that I've been sending referrals to for years now, and they've all been doing the same as well in that's that's been huge for me in terms of (#5) I've grown my business and, like... Yeah.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I agree. And I I would even extend it to people who do the same thing that you do because, you know, I mean, hey, you're a good example for me.
Speaker 1 You've had times where if someone comes along and for whatever reason, you can't take on the project or it's not a perfect fit or whatever, and you send it my way. And (#5) we've had at least 1 example where that was, like huge for me led to, like, a really really great long term relationship with a client. I think I might have sent someone back your way Something sign
Speaker 0 it to me.
Speaker 1 Yeah. There we go. So, yeah. So there we go Reciprocity and everyone wins. Like, it's not like, you and I are sitting here, like.
Speaker 1 We sure trick those clients until, we, like, we all helped each other, and everyone's... You everyone's better off for it. So... Yeah. And for me, you know, I think of, like, you you said before networking that you don't go to a lot of conferences.
Speaker 1 So I actually I really like conferences, what I don't like are, like, the little meetup. Swear... Like, I I live in New York, so there a million of these things and, like, whatever, you know, tech meetup, whatever it might be. Mh. It's when things were slow, I force myself to go to those things because it felt like, okay, I should...
Speaker 1 You know, I should be hitting the pavement or something like that. I hated those things, and I don't think anything ever materialized from any of that. For me, the conferences, there's just more of, like, people have I guess people have put more on the line to be there, and so there's a little bit more of a sense... And usually, there's community around it. So you know, if I'm going to...
Speaker 1 You know... For copywriter, there's Tc Ir, which I've been to several times. Which has been useful for networking. I've gone to un unbalanced conference. Cx.
Speaker 1 I'm gonna go to their conference in Austin and in October. So I do like those. But, yeah, Is I think you have proven that you don't... Networking doesn't have to mean like, in person stuff. Much of it can just be things like disconnecting to people.
Speaker 1 And also even smaller stuff, you know, if you're looking there's someone you look up to, like, promote, you know, they share something on social media, promote it. Leave a nice comment about it. Mh. Again, like, not trying to be manipulative, be genuine in it. But know, show up on people's radars.
Speaker 0 Yeah. Actually...
Speaker 1 Yeah. Good.
Speaker 0 So I was just gonna say related to that, something I didn't mention was, you like the referrals and all that is great, But the other thing that I do to support people that I really believe in is kinda like what you said, If they do a launch, You know, I I might go step further than simply, like, tweeting about it. I'll often buy a seat in-demand essence. Say like, hey, you can donate the seat to someone who, you know, you think can't afford it. And they're obviously appreciative because that's money in their pocket and they get to have an extra person in their thing or they you know, if they're raising money for cause, like, donate some money. Like just think of ways, like like, find a small group of people, this this is just me.
Speaker 0 I I don't I don't go why I go narrow. And so I I like to find, like, a small group of people that I really believe in. And I just... I'm looking for ways to support them whenever I can. And it's just...
Speaker 0 It always it always pays off.
Speaker 1 Yep. And I think the key underlying all of this is what you said. Earlier, reciprocity. And not reciprocity as in like, oh, I read, influenced by Geraldine, and I'm gonna, like, use the reciprocity principle on you earlier but we're just like, yep. It's good for all of us.
Speaker 1 So, you know, what's... You help other people, they'll help you.
Speaker 0 Hundred percent. Anything you want to add? Under network.
Speaker 1 That's it for network for me.
Speaker 0 Authority was 1 of the other themes. We had 5 in total authorities number 2 For me, this is meant, you know, we we spoke about this before, landing some big name clients. Things changed for me. Immediately once I was able to say that I wrote copy for Hubspot. And I had like, 1 of their head marketers give me a testimonial with, like, stats, things that we achieved like that.
Speaker 0 As soon as I could start pointing to to that, it it all it all changed for me, the... It it got way easier to ask for better rates, way easier to close clients and not have them, like b me and ask for, like, a bunch of samples and things like that. They just kind of believe that I could do it. So that was huge for me. Do wanna do 1 of your points?
Speaker 0 Because you had...
Speaker 1 Yeah I mean, I think have... Yeah. Well, so in terms of authority, you know, like... For people listening to this It's like, oh, okay. Like, just go work for hubspot.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Not even know I to include advice for them. So I just wanna reassure people that, like... Because I don't have that either Like, I you know, I have I've worked with some companies that are known in certain spaces, but I don't think that any of the companies I've worked with our are, like at at that level of ability as Hubspot, but that doesn't mean... Like, there are plenty of other ways to build authority.
Speaker 1 And so things that I've done is, like, I definitely did a good amount of work on publishing content with people who are known in the space. So Early on for me, That was Cx excel. Copy hackers written the blog for them. Winter, which they had the messaging testing service. They did a bunch of webinars for a while.
Speaker 1 I, you know, presented on 1 of those. And things like that, definitely compound over time and you start to be a little bit more known. And at some point, Like, it's not the kind of thing like, oh, you publish this blog and all of a sudden a million people are knocking at your door, but you do over time, you start to hear things like, oh, yeah. We've seen your stuff for a little while. We've been what we've been, like, looking forward to working with you and you're like, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 Like, that's never happened before. You they sure thinking of the right person. And then over time, it becomes, you know, it just becomes a little bit more normal And so Yeah. I I just wanna make sure that people understand that, like, it doesn't mean that you necessarily have to just like... Do something super impressive right away, you kind build these things over time and you get the testimonials, and you get a few more logos.
Speaker 1 And things like that and like, measurable results that's an awesome thing to get as soon as you can, but that can take some time to to get there. So
Speaker 0 Yeah. And 1 thing you have that I don't really have I did in my earlier is you have like a really long term engagement with a lot of... Like, proof that you're... That what you've done has actually worked for them. So I think that's a big authority point, because no 1 works with someone for a year plus if they suck.
Speaker 1 Raise ready.
Speaker 0 Especially like the the company that that you've worked with for so long, like they're not they're not tiny. They could easily afford to replace you and get someone else if they thought yeah. Doing a good enough job. So I tell
Speaker 1 No tell them that
Speaker 0 for sure. And then I guess the other thing you touched on, which I think is really important and underestimated and unfortunately, this isn't something... Thing that you can necessarily shortcut, and that's just like time in the game. If you've been doing this for 5 years, 7 years, just it just happens that a lot of people in the space in in related spaces know your name. And so your name just comes up more often.
Speaker 0 Even if you're not top of mind for everybody, if you're just 1 of the names for a lot of people, your name is going to come up more often than what you can actually, like, service in terms of projects. And so it's hard to copy, but that is something that happens when you stick with it, whereas a lot of people, you know, they they're kind of a flash in the pan that come into the business, they get super excited. Post on Linkedin every day and then they kind of fizz out and and disappear. But, yeah, stick with it for 5 to 7 years and things.
Speaker 1 Yeah. That's all you all could do. But I think... Yeah. I mean, I think everything that we're talking about here that the 5 different...
Speaker 1 So we're gonna go through. I think of it, like, time is sort of the the other variable that all of these things will compound once over. So over time, these things compound. And, like, I... You start getting funny situations.
Speaker 1 Like, I have my my brother works at a startup, and they were looking for you know, he's not in marketing. So someone on the marketing team was looking, you know, ask someone they knew for recommendations and, like, yes, his name pops up on the shortlist list. And so it's just like, oh, that's funny. We have a guy here with that same last name. So, yeah, Like, that's...
Speaker 1 Some of that is just a factor. Right? Right? It's just like time I didn't switch I didn't change lines. You know, Like, if you're always changing lines, you're know, oh, maybe that line's faster.
Speaker 1 If you're always... You know, you have to do some of that in the beginning, you're still figuring things out. But if you're always changing lanes you're... You don't get the benefit of of some of these like the network thing and the authority thing, it doesn't compound over time the same way.
Speaker 0 Kind of like like investing. There there'll be a few people who hop in and out of things and they're lucky and they get it right, and they are super rich, but the vast majority Rich people are the ones who just kinda chose their lane and it might not be the best lane all the time, but they stuck in that lane long enough for for, you know, interest to compound. Yeah. That's that's interesting. Just...
Speaker 0 This is kind of off topic now that you mentioned that
Speaker 1 are you gonna bring up warren Buffett and hazard. Something different. Okay.
Speaker 0 Well, Did just read I did just read Poor Charlie.
Speaker 1 Psychology of money, which is also... Okay.
Speaker 0 Poor Charlie Alma was a was a good read. Recommend it. But just going to the topic there of your your brother's company because I personally have... Like, I have a personal policy where I won't work with a client where it's like, I'm being referred by, like, a friend or a family member just because I know how even if I like the... Oh, I obviously I like the friend or the the family member who's referring them, but I I just know that client...
Speaker 0 Like, client relationships can go south despite your best efforts, and I would not want that to happen with, like, or a friend is there and they might be embarrassed by how it goes, for example. Yeah. Do you have any policy or anything on that? Any thoughts? Like, would you...
Speaker 1 Policy, but it's certainly something I take into account you know, sometimes like you're... I'm at, you know, some social event and some a friend will say, like, oh, you know, you should she connect you with so and so and I'm always a little bit wary of it. I always just assume like, probably not. Probably keep those things separate.
Speaker 0 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's just something Kinda stumbled on. And early, as I probably would have said, yes, but now that I can choose, I would choose not to to work with someone that I'm like, close with.
Speaker 0 Yeah. Anything else you wanna add on authority?
Speaker 1 No. They we're good.
Speaker 0 No. Positioning. Anything you wanna say on that?
Speaker 1 Yeah. Sure. So I think they're sort of 2 parts to this. So the first 1 is are you positioned in a market with demand in the first place? Because if there's no demand for the services that you're offering, then, you know, the the question we were asked is, you know, to become an in demand copyright.
Speaker 1 So mh. If the services you offer are in demand, you're not either. So, you know, and hey, like, some people wanna create, like, a really innovative. You know, new service offering and I don't wanna be the person to say, like, no, don't don't do that. Like, just as an example, Like, if someone said, okay.
Speaker 1 I want to I want to write long form sales letters that are gonna be mailed. For sat... For, like, enterprise Saas companies, you know, which I have no idea if that exists. I don't think that there is demand or a market for that, particularly, could be wrong, Maybe that exists and there is demand for it. But if you wanted to do something like that, then you have to create all the demand yourself.
Speaker 1 And so Mh. That is a lot of work. It's a lot of effort. And if it's just you, you know, as a freelancer, you know, you might run out of money before you ever get that to take off. So that's the first part is...
Speaker 1 You know, basically choosing a market where the demand already exists. The second part is that if demand exists, then that means that there's almost certainly competition, And so at that point, you have to make sure that you stand out from that competition. And obviously, you know, there's there's some dynamics with supply and demand. So I think right now for, you know, I think I think there are times where it feels like the demand massively outweighs the supply. And so Maybe you don't have to be like have like, all of your positioning together, Just the fact that you have experienced doing x for companies like you know, whatever whoever's talking to you, whatever prospect is talking to you.
Speaker 1 Maybe that's enough. I imagine the space is gonna grow more crowded over time. And so positioning becomes more important And so it's not just about what services do you offer, but also you know, what's what's your point of view and what makes you different from? The 05:10, 20 other people who offer this as well. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 0 Yeah. You covered a lot of it. So I guess to maybe add, like, I would just go through my own kind of origin story how I got started. So I I positioned myself from the very beginning, which is contrary to what a lot of people do or advised. Like I did not go through any phase where I was a generalist.
Speaker 0 I was a Saas copywriter. The day, well, before Even knew this was gonna be a business, I was a Saas copywriter. And what I saw there was an opportunity in that It's kind of a blend of what you're were talking about. So there was an established market in-demand, but there wasn't really Saas copywriter. So what I mean is Saas companies were hiring copywriter, who might have been b to b, copywriter, b to b, tech copywriter, generalist copywriter, but there wasn't really anyone saying like, I am a Saas copywriter operator.
Speaker 0 I all I do is... In fact, I was bold, and I think I might even still do. I'm not sure, but I called myself the Saas copywriter operator. At the time. And what happened was because 1 was really doing that, I was like immediately ranked number 1 in Google search results for Saas copywriter.
Speaker 0 Search volume wasn't huge, but I was 1 person and I still am, and so it was enough always. I don't I don't... I probably don't rank number 1 anymore because I've literally put no effort into it, but doesn't matter. In the early days it mattered though. And so there might be an opportunity where, you know, like it I'm sure this exists.
Speaker 0 But people are paying people like me and you to do onboarding emails for Saas companies. That is a thing. But there might not be well, I'm sure there is. But in some examples, there won't be someone who calls himself, you know, the Saas onboarding email copywriter. Right?
Speaker 0 And so that's where you can sort of differentiate by your title and you can... That will inspire like we were talking about before authority. But you're not having to create a a new market despite being, you know, want the first or maybe 1 of a few people who state who like, make that claim. So I would look for opportunities like that. Because when when I'm talking to people about positioning they're...
Speaker 0 They think they can just call themselves a Saas copywriter and it's... All going to work out like it did for me, but 7 years have passed since I've done that. And now there's tons of Saas copywriter if you go on Linkedin, like, there's no shortage of them. And so like, if I were starting my business today, that's what I'd be looking for. I'd be looking for.
Speaker 0 The next opportunity. If it were in Sas, I'd be going deeper In-Demand looking for a specific like, type of deliverable or vertical within the Saas that I could focus on. And if it wasn't within Saas, then I would be looking for the equivalent of what I did, which is, you know, which niche niches are buying copy, but no 1 is claiming that they are a copywriter focused on that niche. That's that's how I would approach it.
Speaker 1 Yep. Exactly. So I think... I mean, honestly it sounds like you just nailed positioning from from the ge. It's all that business.
Speaker 0 Yeah. Yeah. Like like early. Yeah.
Speaker 1 Yep. Yeah. You picked... You you chose to offer services that were already in demand, but then you made yourself meaningfully differentiated from the other options.
Speaker 0 Yep. So yeah, if you're listening to this and you see that we both call ourselves Saas copywriter operators that doesn't mean it's going to fly if you're just starting your business today because... There's a long line of them now. Alright. Positioning sales is our next 1 sales.
Speaker 0 So I have... This is this is a harder 1 harder 1 to talk about. But And I think we talked about a little bit before So you might have some more, like, in... Thoughts on this, but really it's just like actually knowing how to... And conduct a sales call and not...
Speaker 0 How can I put this? If if I think about when I first started and what a sales call looked like. It was me showing up on a call, and a prospect, telling me what I'm going to do. And and for approximately how much money I'm going to do it.
Speaker 1 Needs to
Speaker 0 be done, and then I just nod my head and I say, yep, I can do that. Whereas, like, a sales call now is... It very quickly turns into, like, an advisory type call where they're coming to me and I'll quickly kind of... Shut down the idea that they already know exactly what they need unless they can say that they've already done all the work that I would have done. And it turns into a call, like, let's just discuss like your challenges, your goals, what kind of, like Kpis are you trying to hit?
Speaker 0 Like, what what do we need to accomplish here for this to be successful? Like and then we start thinking about, like, what that might look like. So it's going from order taker to advisory, like role as as quickly as possible, And the other piece that that comes into sales that I don't think is spoken about enough is how important it is have money in the bank. It is really hard to be good at sales, if you need a client to say yes. So as soon as like like my ability to sell increase dramatically, once I was able to look at my bank account and be like, I mean, I I'd like for them to say yes, But if they say, no, I'd don't care that much.
Speaker 0 I'm going to be fine. Yeah. And that's just wasn't the case in the early days. In the early days, it was, like, well, if I don't close you sales, my wife is gonna say, you should probably go and get a job because this isn't working out for you. Right?
Speaker 0 So the confidence that comes with money in the bank. If you can do it, like, some people, they're they're thrust into this into this role where they have to just make it work. But if you have a choice, like, save up some money ahead of time. Once you start making money in freelance like sock away as much of that as possible. And then when you get to that point where you don't need a yes anymore.
Speaker 0 You can you can look at all the tactics and sales, but just not needing them to say yes is probably, like, the most massive advantage you can give yourself.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, they can they can tell that you don't need it, and that sends a very powerful signal. Like, what's so great about this guy that he doesn't... That he's not desperate for our... For this job the way that everyone else we spoke to was.
Speaker 1 And people, you know, want what they can't have. Humor has never
Speaker 0 had it. Sorry. Go ahead.
Speaker 1 Head what?
Speaker 0 No. I've have you ever had it where it's like they're... It like, you say no to what they're initially looking for and they are just like... Working, like selling you on working with them, like, that doesn't happen if you need them to say, yes, because you'll just say yes to whatever they said first. But if you're like Now that's not really what I do or in a situation like this, I do that or I don't have time for this right now.
Speaker 0 It's gonna be 2 months. And they're just like, okay. But like, what if what if And then It's it's that thing. It's like they're, like, this guy doesn't need it. And so we probably need him because lots of what seem to need.
Speaker 1 Yeah. I had I had an example kind of like that. Several months ago where I was doing a really small project for someone and they pushed back a little bit on the quote that I gave them. And I I didn't do this as as a tactic. It it sort of is a sales tactic that I'm aware of and that I I can use.
Speaker 1 But... Didn't do this as tactic, but basically, the way I felt it was, like, I was worried that if if that amount of money was too much for them. I was uncomfortable with, like, are they gonna feel like they got enough value from what they spent. And so my genuine feeling on the inside was, like, maybe I'm... Maybe they shouldn't work with me.
Speaker 1 Like maybe they should be working with someone who's a little bit cheaper. And so, you know, I said something to that effect in a, you know, professional way of just like, hey, like, if this doesn't really make sense for you right now, you really might be better served by another copywriter who can do more work within that budget or can can do the same work in... For for less. It did not take long can to come back and just be like, No. No.
Speaker 1 We'll pay. But it's fine. And again, like, I think you and I are both... We're not the kind of people who, you know, we like marketing, we like sales. But we don't wanna feel manipulative.
Speaker 1 We wanna sleep at night. We don't want to feel like we're tricking people, or manipulating people or acting against their their best interest. And so... Not needing things is just a powerful way to just buy default have that kind of power and that in-demand being more persuasive, And again, like, this is another thing where it's like, it's not a quick solve, like you can't just... If you need money right now, like you can't just have money, mh Obviously, So, you know, I guess, I I think of this as something for people to kind of look forward to, like, this is 1 of those things that once he kinda get to that other side.
Speaker 1 It becomes a lot more fun because you're... You don't have that feeling anymore that you were talking about where they're like, you're gonna kinda write these emails for us and we will pay you this amount of money and we need it done by next week. I hate that feeling. I it feels like it crashes my sense of autonomy, and I I can't deal with that. On the topic, we're we're still talking about sales.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Yep. I. I mean, so so to come back to why I think we included sales on this because, again, like, the the question is about becoming in demand. So it's not really about money.
Speaker 1 Sales is what allows you to get good projects and good projects, lead to happy clients, happy clients, lead to good testimonials. And case studies and things like that and good testimonials case studies, lead to more awesome projects. So in this context, I'm thinking of sales as a tool for you to keep moving to that next level so that you're not stuck as that order taker because you could stay there forever and do you know, I don't I don't know what that life is like. I'm sure you can make a living that way, But I I know I wouldn't be happy with that. If you're listening to this, you probably aren't happy with that.
Speaker 1 You So sales is kind of the way to get access to those better projects where you get to do more interesting work that you can share and then get more interesting work.
Speaker 0 Yep. And you you don't learn very much when you work on those low quality projects. Like, when I think about year 1, I definitely had some low quality projects. With low quality clients. And the main thing you learned is like, I hope I don't have to keep doing this forever.
Speaker 0 That's like... Because, like, yeah. You're you're working with people like, once you start landing those really good projects with good clients, like, you're dealing with, like Cmos that are on top of their game. And, yeah, it might be a copy. Grading project, but you just learned so much about, like, the business and marketing and sales in general.
Speaker 0 When you're when you're working with people, you'd really suspect, who who do their own thing really, really well. So... Yes. And that's why going back to positioning, I think you need to do that sooner rather than later. A lot of people will say, just play around as a generalist, and I just think that's an expensive way to learn the sooner you can narrow your niche and switch later if you need to, but The sooner you can narrow the sooner you're going to get those higher quality clients and and and actually start to learn how to do this thing real well.
Speaker 1 Nope. You're back to positioning again.
Speaker 0 Yeah. I know.
Speaker 1 Hard to talk about hard to talk about positioning in sales without talking about the other?
Speaker 0 I know. Are anything else on sales?
Speaker 1 No. I think that's it.
Speaker 0 No. So I guess the last 1 then is like ongoing learning just being a constant student. And... We had an interesting chat. Before we started recording and we found out we both have a very similar story in that.
Speaker 0 You know, we were... Pretty disengaged in, like, high school and stuff like that compared to a lot of people, but we were both, like early readers. Like, I latched onto business books really early on, psychology as well. And I think that is something that, like sets you apart. There are...
Speaker 0 There... I would say most copywriter in the game are people who learn that you can make a lot of money doing this and they've read a couple of old school books. They've looked a copy other people have written, and they think I'm gonna do this. Too. And there's just...
Speaker 0 That person who has been reading about, like, psychology, copywriting, business, positioning, persuasion, like, innovation and disruption, like Clayton Kristen christians and stuff. If you've been doing this for years, like you just have, like a foundation that you're able to draw from. And it it helps you understand... It helps you go beyond just, like, mimicking what other people are doing to, like, understanding why they're doing what they're doing, which is huge because When you understand what people like, why why copywriter are making the choices that they're making and whether or not they're making good choices. When you get a project, you're not just trying to apply like this template or this hack to your project, you have, like a library of of insight to draw from and you can kind of solve the problem in your own way.
Speaker 0 And you'll rarely be completely stumped. You might not know the answer right away, but you'll have, like, can a strong enough starting point just based on the library of information you've stored in your in your head that you can at least, like get going and then find, like a solution later. So this is something that I think is a huge opportunity because I just don't think many copywriter are... Like very well read in in incorporating and then in in some of the spaces around it.
Speaker 1 Yep. I don't have too too much to add. I say that now, but then we'll see maybe I'll ramble.
Speaker 0 And then it's
Speaker 1 really (#5) minutes And I go, but I don't have anything add. Yeah. So I think that commitment to being like a lifelong owner. It's it's huge. And I think that that it it's also something that's kind of easy to overlook too because you just sort of when you see people who seem like, really switched on and like, they really understand what they're doing and their an expert.
Speaker 1 You just kind of assume that they just somehow, like, that's just how they are. And I think a lot of times those people just turn out to be, like, really big readers or, you know, just people who are are committed to to always learning. You know, I think also, like, I I think of myself was like, I like to collect mentors and those can be people that you get to have, like, a 1 on 1 relationship in some cases. You know... Honestly, they you as a mentor.
Speaker 1 Maybe in a few years, I can be, like, no, I'm on on par with Josh. But
Speaker 0 hopefully, I have evolved then. I'm once again.
Speaker 1 No slow down. People like Joanna Weed from copy maybe. Huge difference in my business, Amy Pos as well. Too many people to name. And then also some of those mentors they don't have be people that you necessarily know 1 on 1, like those can be people who, you know, you read their books or they're not alive anymore and you're reading like, a book they wrote in the sixties or or whatever it is, would And then, yeah, also reading across those different areas.
Speaker 1 So not just copying in psychology, but I think it's a good idea to read some business books as well, maybe kinds of things that your clients are reading. So if you're talking to founders, then, you know, look into what are what are, you know, founders reading, if you're selling to you know, whatever Cmos and marketers, like try to figure out what other people are looking at. So, you know, when they bring up some some framework or or something, you already know about that, you know? Or Yep. If they they bring up April dun or whoever it is, like, exactly.
Speaker 1 You know what they're talking No interest. Stage. Yeah.
Speaker 0 Yeah. I have no interest in starting a Saas company of my own. But like, (#5) have read 0 to 1 and I've read, like the the positioning books that they read and the disruption and innovation books and, you know, or is it lean start up back in the day, like... Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0 And it's just... I I think people can tell and it might not be like, they might be like, oh, yeah. He's read the books. But when you have a conversation with someone who's read all the books that you've read, you you just... Yeah.
Speaker 0 You're you're just... You're able to have like, an actual conversation back and forth versus, like, spacing out when they're talking about all this stuff and then it's, like, you hear copyright yeah. I write words. And then, you know, you're you're the copywriter, and then you're you're not able to be seen as like a a partner in any sense. Right.
Speaker 1 Oh, And like... And I've I've only done this too where... And because I do check these things out, like, you... Most of the time someone brings... Something like this.
Speaker 1 Know it is. Sometimes I don't know what it is. And then, like, just look it up after the call. And then now because if it's something that you're that's prospects are talking about, then it's probably worth being aware of in-demand understanding. And yeah.
Speaker 1 I think I think that... Yeah. Go ahead.
Speaker 0 I was just gonna say, I think that's where like, being wall read really pays off because if I think about, like, if I'm working with a a freelancer. And they don't know something, and I just need to get them up to speed on this little thing and they can kinda hang that new knowledge off of, like, a tree of other stuff that the got because that really well read. Sure that's different than if I'm working with a freelancer who knows some basics about copywriting, but then I have to explain, like everything about, like, how disruption works, how positioning works, how messaging works, Like how psychology works, and they have no idea of any of these things like, then I can't just teach them that little thing and they're gonna get it. Like... Because they have nothing to hang it off.
Speaker 0 It's just gonna be this little piece of information that's floating around and not attached to anything. So Yeah. Yeah it's like just so huge. If if you can be well read, yeah it's better if you started earlier, but if not, like, just start reading now,
Speaker 1 It's Yeah. And if if for whatever reason, it's, like, reading, I think you're a copywriter, I hope that you like to read at least a little bit. That's a 1. But some don't... And and I think if that's you, you know, like, there's probably...
Speaker 1 There probably other ways, like, if you're just for whatever reason that's just not your thing. There are probably other ways that can soak all of that information in as well. Like, there's some books that I recommend people, like, like, you don't have to read it, but you probably go on Youtube and watch someone's 10 minute, like, animated review of it or whatever. And at Least... In-demand that's better than not doing anything.
Speaker 1 Like, you know, you it's better to, like, just thinking of, like, good books that if you're in tech marketing that you should know, like, crossing the chasm.
Speaker 0 Yep.
Speaker 1 Like, do you have to read every page of crossing the Chasm? You can. But you'd also probably really well served by, like, watching Yep some... I'm sure if you go on Youtube there like, a bunch of people who've have done reviews of it and with animations and all stuff like that. So, like...
Speaker 1 Yeah. That that find other things that work for you, courses, whether they're paid or free. Those are really helpful. I'm a big fan of copy, copy school where that has, like, tons and tons of lessons, and there are some of them that are so valuable that I've watched them a bunch of times, and they've become so ingrained me that I don't even know that that's where it comes from anymore. So a client will ask me about something, and I'll just say, oh, yeah, Here's how it works.
Speaker 1 And I'm talking like like I'm, you know, a super expert on this topic. And a big part of that reason is because I've kind of just like brain washed it into my... I I brain washed myself with like, with smart people with with the words and thoughts of of smart people. So at some point, we should probably do like, a a list of, like, all the stuff we recommend All the books. Yeah.
Speaker 1 All the courses there's all of it Together.
Speaker 0 But for sure. Yeah. Yeah. That would be a good in-demand I think, yeah, We zoomed in on reading and reading is just what comes natural to both of us. But I think deep down, it's it's just...
Speaker 0 So you can separate yourself by being a curious person. There's lots of people who are comes you know, they they just kinda hammer out their work and they turn it off and they don't think about anything outside of that. They just look for leisure time. But if you're the type of person who just is always liking to learn new things, even if it's not directly related to to what you do. Like I like to read a lot of, like, science books and stuff like that, it's just Yeah.
Speaker 0 Just it just makes a difference. You can tell someone who's always learning from someone who isn't.
Speaker 1 I I have Ice suspect. That on a lot of sales calls, what it kind of comes down to for the prospect, looking at 1 of us. Like, let's say that it's a prospect you're speaking to you. I have a feeling that, you know, let's say that person leaves, and they have to go explain. To someone else why they think that they should go with you.
Speaker 1 I feel like they might not be able to articulate it other than to say, like, this guy just gets it. You know what I mean? Like? And I think that we we talked about that earlier several... Privately about.
Speaker 1 Like, sometimes you just you meet someone who's an up and incoming freelancer answer, copywriter, and you just get this sense of, like, okay, This person gets and they might not know everything yet, They might not be an expert yet. But I think with that thing of, like, they get it is. It's that sort of that they have this. Curiosity, and they've been trying to satisfy it. And so you get this feeling that, like, okay, This person is even if they don't understand everything that they need to know today, I trust that they will be able to understand what they need to know in order to do a good job.
Speaker 1 So mh. I think I think that learning helps you stand out as someone who just gets it.
Speaker 0 Yeah. That's actually a really good way of putting it in that action. Actually had clients say that. Like, like, that's why they chose means. Because like, know, you just kinda...
Speaker 0 Like, you... I felt like you understood what we were trying to do. And it and it's that sales call, like, it's it's a conversation. It's... You're able to kind of, like, bro a bunch of different topics with them just because you're familiar with you're not just waiting for them to say copywriting so that you can tune in and say something smart.
Speaker 0 You can say something smart about a lot of things.
Speaker 1 Right Right.
Speaker 0 That Awesome. Anything else to add Otherwise, I think we can wrap it up there.
Speaker 1 I I will add 1 last tiny thing, so this this isn't like... 1 of the 1 of the 5 things. But something that I've found helpful is to be part of 1 or more communities. So people who are, like minded and on a similar journey. I don't think that that's like, necessarily something that's like...
Speaker 1 That's gonna make or break whether or not you're in a. Whether or not you're, like, highly in demand or something like that. But for me, I just know that, you know, this this journey, like, we're talking about it right now is if it's like, oh, yeah Everything's like, fun and you get to you get to tell people who want to work with you that they can, you know, go get lost because you have enough money, you don't need to work with them or whatever. Like, there are peaks and valleys to this journey for sure. And when you hit those...
Speaker 1 Valleys, you know, having a community is huge. Like, they will be the people who kind of, like keep going. And then also, you know, when you have those when when you have those peaks, then you also have people to celebrate those with you too, which is also really nice. But... For me, it's more important to have the the company when I'm miserable.
Speaker 1 I'm gonna do that just Yeah. Other people celebrating when I'm happy so.
Speaker 0 That's a good point. I don't I don't necessarily think Twitter and Linkedin count as that community.
Speaker 1 No. I don't mean that I mean, a group of like. Like, minded people. So for me, I... I feel like I'm playing, like, copy hackers being good today.
Speaker 1 But, like, I'm in the 10 x freelance copywriter group, which is a paid group, so I don't wanna just suggest that as something that people like, necessarily have to, but I love that group, But I've been it for several years. There's also the copywriter club on Facebook, which I'm pretty sure still free. So, you know, you can find people at a place like that. And, you know, other... I'm sure there are others out there that I don't need to know about.
Speaker 1 But (#5) I found that helpful throughout the whole process.
Speaker 0 Yeah. This is something that I'm actually still thinking, like, I keep going back forth and whether or not I wanna start like a a community for for Saas copywriter and people who are interested in it because and no shortage of us on Twitter at Linkedin, but there's, like, a select few corners where where we actually get together and talk at length with each other work. And we're not like confined by Twitter's character count or trying to portray this image. To the mass public where you can actually get real and and sometimes people and say that
Speaker 1 absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 0 Yeah. Yeah. For sure. To Cool. Anything else?
Speaker 1 No. I think we nailed it.
Speaker 0 Alright. So I guess just to quickly summarize. We had kind of 5 5 ways that you can separate yourself or or graduate from being like a steady copper copywriter to an in demand copywriter. Networking, and that can mean a bunch of different things, the traditional sense of going to conferences but also just building kind of bridges between you in-demand other businesses that you believe in. Authority, pretty obvious positioning, choose that niche and early and make sure it's something where there's actually some demand.
Speaker 0 Don't go too far off a beaten path ideally. Sales, which comes with, you know, being confident on calls and knowing how to actually conduct yourself and a side point there was having some money in the bank really helps with confidence far more than any sales tactics you might pick up and learning just whether that's reading for us, that's mostly reading, but doesn't have read reading just as long as you're curious and always trying to satisfy that curiosity. You're gonna come out the other side as someone who has that foundation that clients can spot that people like you and I can spot when we're looking for a sub contractor that just makes it far easier to say yes to to working with you. And then you mentioned community, which I agree. I I feel like and this might be biased because I've been working with Circle, so I'm drinking their ko aid and whatnot, but I really do feel like there's...
Speaker 0 We're we're starting to see pushback on on social media. People are starting to get tired, working of it. I think there's a lot of people are getting tired of all the the back and forth on there, and they're looking for a place to connect kind of like how we used to, like, in forums and stuff like that. Where it was topic based. Long form content.
Speaker 0 Yeah. I I feel like that might might... That might be where a lot of us are headed And so I agree. Community should definitely be added there.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Can we bring back the old school forum thing. I'll be very excited because I can use bump again. That was my favorite. And or something But the red went cold, you go thumb to bring it back to the top.
Speaker 0 I was I was part of the Rich dad Poor dad. For them back when I was, like, 15 or 16, and I was giving, like, grown grown men advice.
Speaker 1 Oh, my gosh. Do
Speaker 0 for their business Don't... That's like yeah.
Speaker 1 The key here. Don't take your advice online. It's a 60 kid who has no idea what he's like
Speaker 0 I was I was just like, I was just soaking up all the business books and reg it back to them basically with... If I really think back to it, but they were loving it. But, yeah, I agree. Community is gonna be huge. Alright.
Speaker 0 We will call it there then.
Speaker 1