Summary Benjamin Netanyahu: Israel, Palestine, Power, Corruption, Hate, and Peace | Lex Fridman Podcast #389 - YouTube (Youtube) www.youtube.com
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Speaker 0 We should never and I never sit aside and say, oh, they're just threatening to destroy us, they won't do it. If somebody threatens to eliminate, you as Iran is doing today and as Hitler did then and people discounted it. Well, if somebody threatens to an eyelid, else, take them seriously. And act to prevented it early on. Don't let them have the means to do so because that may be too late.
Speaker 1 The following is a conversation with benjamin Netanyahu, prime Minister of Israel, currently, serving his sixth term in office. The He's 1 of the most influential, powerful and controversial men in the world, leading a right wing coalition government. At the center of 1 of the most intense and long lasting conflicts in crises in human history. As we spoke and as I speak now large scale protests are breaking out all over Israel over this government's proposed judicial reform that seeks to weaken supreme Court, in a bold accumulation of power. Given the current intense political battles in Israel, our previous intention to speak for 3 hours was adjusted to 1 hour for the time being, but we agreed to speak again for much longer in the future.
Speaker 1 I will also interview people who harshly disagree with the words spoken in this conversation. I will speak with other world leaders. With religious leaders with historians and activists. And with people who have lived and have suffered through the pain of war, destruction and loss that stoke the fires of anger and hate in their heart. For this, I will travel anywhere, no matter how dangerous.
Speaker 1 If there's any chance, it may help add to understanding and love in the world. I believe in the power of conversation to do just this, to remind us of our common humanity. I know I'm under qualified and under skills for these conversations So I will often fall short, and I will certainly get attacked, der delighted and sla. But I will always turn the other cheek. And use these attacks to learn to improve and no matter what, never give to cy.
Speaker 1 This life, this world of ours is too beautiful not to keep trying, trying to do some good in whatever way each of us know how. I love you all. This is the Deluxe frequent podcast to support it, Please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends, here's Benjamin, Netanyahu. You're loved by many people here in Israel in in the world, but you're also hated by many. In fact, I think you may be 1 of the the most hated men in the world.
Speaker 1 So if there's a young man or a young woman listening to this right now. Who have such hate in their heart. What can you say to them to 1 day turn that hate into love?
Speaker 0 I disagree with the premise of your question. I think Have enjoyed a very broad support around the world. There are certain corners in which we have we have this an that you described and it sort of perm in some of the newspapers news organs and so on and in the United States, but it certainly doesn't reflect the the broad support that I have. I just gave an interview on an iranian channel, 16000000 viewers. I gave another 1 just did a little video.
Speaker 0 A few years ago, 25000000 viewers from Iran. Certainly no hate there. I have to tell not from the regime. Okay. And when I go around the world, and I've been around the world.
Speaker 0 People... Wanna hear what we have to say, what I have to say is a leader of israel visual whom they respect increasingly is a rising power in the world. So I disagree agree with that. And the most important thing that goes against what you said is the respect. That we received from the Arab world and the fact that we've made 4 historic peace agreements with Arab countries and they made it with me, they didn't make it with anyone else and I respect them and they respect me and probably more to come.
Speaker 0 So I think the premise is wrong. That's all. Wow. There's a lot
Speaker 1 of love. Yes. The a lot of leaders are collaborating are... Respect I said. No not though.
Speaker 1 Okay. Alright. Well, it's it's a spectrum. But there is people who... Don't have good things to say about Israel.
Speaker 1 Who do have hate in their heart and for Israel. No. And what can you say to those people.
Speaker 0 Well, I think they don't know very much. I think they're guided by a lot of ignorance. They don't know about Israel. They don't know that Israel is a stellar democracy that it happens to be 1 of the most advanced societies on the planet that What israel develops helps, humanity and every field that medicine and agriculture and in the environment and telecom and talk about Ai in a minute, but changing the world for the better and spreading this among 6 continents. We've set rescue teams more than any other country in the world and we're 1 tenth of 1 percent of the World's population.
Speaker 0 But when there's a earthquake or a devastation in Haiti or in the Philippines Israel well as there when there's an earthquake devastating earthquake in Turkey, Turkey. Israel was there. When there's something in Nepal, Israel is there. And it's the second country. It's the second country after in 1 case, India, or after in another case, the United States Israel is there tiny israel is a ben to all of humanity.
Speaker 1 Or Your student of history, if I could just linger on that philosophical notion of hate, that part of human nature. If you look... At World war 2, what do you learn from human nature from the rise of the third reich and the rise of somebody like Hitler and the hate the Perm is that...
Speaker 0 Well, what I've learned is that you have to nip bad things in the bud. You have to... There's a lot term that says up stop print. Stop bad things when they're small. And the...
Speaker 0 You deliberate hatred, the the incite of hatred against the 1 community, demon immunization, d randomization that goes with it is a very dangerous thing and that happened in the case of the jews. What started with the Jews soon spread to all of humanity. So what we've learned is, that's what we should we should never and I never sit aside and say, oh, they're just threatening to destroy us, they won't do it. If somebody threatens to eliminate you. As Iran is doing today, and as Hitler did then and people discounted it.
Speaker 0 Well, if somebody threatens to an eyelid, else take them seriously. And act to prevent it early on. Don't let them have the means to do so because that may be too late.
Speaker 1 So in those threats? Underlying that hatred, how much of it is anti zion and how much of it is antisemitism?
Speaker 0 I don't distinguish between the 2. You can't say, well, I'm I'm okay with Jews, but I just don't think there should be a Jews state. It's like they're saying, I'm not anti American. I just don't think there should be an America. That's basically what.
Speaker 0 What people are saying vis a vis antisemitism and zion. When you're saying anti zion, you're saying that Jewish people don't have a right to a state of their own. And that that is a denial of of a basic have a basic principle that I think completely un masks, what is involved here. Today antisemitism, is zion. Those who oppose the Jewish people oppose the Jewish state.
Speaker 1 If we jump from human history to the current... Particular moment. There's protests in Israel now about the proposed judicial reform. That gives power to your government to override the Supreme court. So the critics say that this gives too much power to you or actually making you a dictator Yeah.
Speaker 0 Well, that's ridiculous. The mere fact that you have so many demonstrations in protest, some some dictatorship. There's a a lot of democracy here, more more and more robust than just anywhere in the planet.
Speaker 1 Can you steel man the case that this gives this may give too much power to the the Coalition government to the prime minister. Not just to you, but to those who follow?
Speaker 0 No. I think that's complete hog wash because I I think there's there's a very few people are demonstrating against this. Quite a few quite many. Don't have an idea what is being discussed. They're be basically being slogan.
Speaker 0 You can slogan. You know, something about not mass media right now, but the social law network. You can basically feed deliberately with big data and big money. You can just feed slogan and get into people's minds. I'm sure you don't think I exaggerated because you can tell me more about that.
Speaker 0 And you can create mass mobilization based on these absurd slogan. So here here's where we I come from and what we're doing, what we're trying to do And what we've changed in what we're trying to do. I'm a nineteenth century Democrat in my small. Yes. Mh.
Speaker 0 In my views. That is I view. I asked the question. What is democracy? Okay.
Speaker 0 So democracy is is the will over the majority and the protection of the rights. So they call it the rights of the minority, but I say the rights of... Of the individual. Okay? So how do you balance the 2?
Speaker 0 Okay? How do you get those... How do you avoid democracy? Okay? And how do you avoid dictatorship, the opposite side.
Speaker 0 The way you avoid it is something that was built essentially by British philosophers and. French philosopher, but was encapsulated by the founding fathers of the United States. You create a balance between the 3 branches of government, Okay. The legislative executive and the Judiciary. And this balance is what assures the balance between majority rights and individual rights.
Speaker 0 And you have to balance all of them. Okay. That balance was maintained in Israel in his first 50 years and was gradually over overtake and basically broken by the most activist judicial court on the planet. That's what happened here. And gradually over the last 2, 3 decades.
Speaker 0 The court aggregated for itself, the powers of the parliament and the executive. So we're trying to bring it back into line. Bringing it back into line into what is common in all parliamentary democracies and in the United States doesn't mean taking the pendulum pension from 1 side, and bring you to the other side. We want checks and balances not unrivaled part. Just as we said, we want an independent judiciary not in all powerful judiciary.
Speaker 0 That balance does not mean bring back into line. Doesn't mean that you can have the... But the parliament arc override any decision that the supreme Court does. So I pretty much early on onset after the judicial reform was introduced get rid of the idea of sweeping override clause that would have with 61 votes that's majority of 1, you can just null any supreme court decision. So let's move it back into the center.
Speaker 0 So that's gone. And most of the criticism on, the judicial reform was based on a on a an unlimited override clause, which I've said it's simply not gonna happen. People are discussing something that already for 6 months does not exist. The second point that we received criticism on was the the structure of how do you choose supreme poor judges? Okay.
Speaker 0 How do how do you choose them? And the critics of the reform saying that the idea that elected officials who choose supreme court judges is the end of democracy. If that's the case of the United States is not a democracy, neither is France and other are just I don't know, just about every every democracy on the planet. So there is a view here that you can't have the sorted hands of elected officials involved in the choosing of judges and the israeli system, the judicial activism went so far that effectively the sitting judges have an effective veto system and choosing judges, which means that this is a self selecting court just perpetrators itself. And we want to correct that.
Speaker 0 Again, want to correct it in a balanced way. And that's basically what we're trying to do. So I think there's a lot of misinformation about that. We're trying to bring Israeli democracy to where it was in its first 50 years. And it was a stellar democracy.
Speaker 0 Still is. This really is a democracy, will remain a democracy, vibrant democracy and believe me the fact that people are arguing and demonstrating in the streets, and protesting is just is the best proof of that. And that's how it remain.
Speaker 1 We spoke about tech companies Yeah. Offline. There's a lot of tech companies nervous about this judicial reform. Can you speak to why large and small companies have a future in Israel.
Speaker 0 Because Israel is a free market economy. I had something to do with that. I introduced... Dozens and dozens of free market reforms that made Israel move from 17000 dollars per capita income to within very short time. To 54000 dollars that's nominal Gdp per capita according to the Imf.
Speaker 0 And we've overtake in that Japan, France, Britain, Germany. And how did that happen? Because we unleashed the the genius that we have and the initiative and the entrepreneurship that is lightening in our population. And to do that, we had to create free markets. So we created that.
Speaker 0 Israel has 1 of the most vibrant free market economies in the world. And the second thing we have is a permanent investment in conceptual products because we have a permanent investment in the military and our security services creating basically knowledge workers will then become knowledge entrepreneurs. And so we create this structure. And that's not going to go away. There's been a decline in investments in high tech globally, I think that's driven by many factors, but the most important 1 is the interest rate, which which I think will it'll fluctuate up and down.
Speaker 0 But Israel will remain a very attractive country because it produces so many, so many knowledge workers in a knowledge based, economy, and it's changing so rapidly. The world has changing. You're looking for the places that have innovation. The future belongs to this to those who innovate, Israel is the preeminent eminent innovation nation It has few competitors. And if we would say, alright.
Speaker 0 Where do you have this close cross disciplinary? Fermentation of various skills and areas, I would say it's in Israel. I I'll tell you why we used to be just telecom, because people went out of the military intelligence our Nsa. But that's been now broad based. So you find it in medicine, you find it in biology you find it in Ag tech, you find it everywhere.
Speaker 0 Everything is becoming and in Israel, everybody is dealing and everything. And that's that's a potent reservoir of talent that the world is not going to pass up and in fact, it's coming to us. We just had Nvidia coming year and they decided to build a supercomputer in israel wonder why. We've had until coming here and deciding down to invest 25000000000 dollars just now. Mh.
Speaker 0 In a new plant in Israel. I wonder why. I don't wonder why. They know why because the talent is here and the freedom is here, then it remain so.
Speaker 1 So you had a conversation about Ai with Sam Alt of Open Ai and with Elon musk. Yeah. What was the content of that conversation? What's your vision for sort of this very highest of tech, which is artificial intelligence.
Speaker 0 Well, first of all I have a high regard for the people I talked to. Okay. And I understand that they understand things. I don't understand and I don't pretend to understand everything, but I do understand 1 thing. I understand that Ai is developing at a geometric rate.
Speaker 0 And mostly in in political life and in life in general, people don't have an intuitive grasp of geometric growth. You understand things basically in linear increments. And the idea that you're coming up of ski slope is very foreign to people that don't understand it and they're naturally also sort of taken a aback by it because what do you do? Okay? So I think the...
Speaker 0 There's several conclusions from my conversations with with them and from my other observations that I've been talking about for many years. I'm talking about the need to do this. Well, the first thing is this, there is no possibility of not entering Ai with full force. Secondly, there is a need for regulation. Third, it's not clear there'll be global regulation.
Speaker 0 Fourth, it's not clear where it ends up. I certainly cannot say that. Now you might say does it come to control us? Okay. That's a question.
Speaker 0 Does it come to control us? I don't know the answer to that. I think that as as 1 observation that I had from these conversations is if it does come to control, that's probably the only chance of having universal regulation because I don't see anyone deciding to avoid the race and cooperate unless you have that threat. It doesn't mean you can't regulate Ai within countries even without that understanding. But it does mean that there's a limit to regulation because every country we wanna make sure that it's not...
Speaker 0 Does give up competitive advantage if there is no universal regulation. I think that right now just as 10 years ago, I read I read a novel. I don't read novels, but I was forced to read 1 by scientific advisor. I read history. I read about economics I read about technology.
Speaker 0 I just don't read novels. Okay? And this Follow churchill, You, we said fact is better than fiction. Well, this friction would become fact. And it was a book.
Speaker 0 It was a novel about a Chinese Americans future cyber war. And I read the book 1 sitting, called in team of experts and I said, all alright. Let's let's turn israel into 1 of the world's 5 cyber, let's do it very quickly and we did actually. We did exactly that. I think Ai is bigger than that than related to that because it'll affect well cyber affects everything, but Ai will affect it even more fundamental and the joining of the 2 could be very powerful.
Speaker 0 So I think in Israel, we have to do it anyway for security reasons and we're doing it But I think what about what about our databases that are already very robust on on the medical records of 98 percent of our population. Why do we stick a genetic database on that, Why do we do other things that could... Bring magical. What are seemingly magical cures and drugs and medical instruments for that, that's 1 possibility we have it. And as I said in every single field.
Speaker 0 The conclusion is this. We have to move on Ai for we are moving on Ai just as we moved on cyber. And I think as well will be 1 of the leading 1 of the leading Ai, powers in the world. The questions I don't have an answer to is, where does it go? How much does it eat true up on on jobs?
Speaker 0 There's an assumption that I'm not sure it's true that all previous, the 2 big previous revolutions in the human condition, namely the agriculture revolution and the industrial revolution, definitely produce more jobs than they than they consumed. Okay? That is not obvious to me at all. I mean, I could see new jobs creating and yes, I have that comforting statement. But it's not quite true.
Speaker 0 Because I think on balance, they'll probably consume more jobs, many more jobs than they'll create.
Speaker 1 At least in the short term. And we don't know about the long term.
Speaker 0 No I don't know about the long term, but I I used to have the comfort being a free market guy. I always said, you know, we're gonna produce more jobs and you know, by, I don't know, limiting certain government jobs. We're actually putting out in the market, we'll create more jobs, which obviously happen. You know, we had 1 telecom company, a government company When I said we're we're going to create competition. They said you're going to run us out.
Speaker 0 We're not going to have more workers. Yes, they had 13000 workers. They went down to 7, but we created another 40000 in the other companies. So that was a comforting thought. I always knew that was True.
Speaker 0 Okay. Not only that, I also knew that wealth would spread by opening up the markets completely opposite to the socialist and semi socialist creed that they had here. They said you're going to make the rich richer and the poor poor no and made everyone richer and actually the people entered the job market because of the reforms we did actually became a lot richer on the the lower ladders of the soc economic measure. But here's the point. I don't know.
Speaker 0 I don't know that we will not have what elon Musk cause the end of scarcity. So you'll have the end of scarcity You'll have enormous productivity. You know, very few people are producing enormous added value. You're going to have to tax that to pass it to the others, okay? You're gonna have to do that.
Speaker 0 That's a political question. I'm not sure how we answer that. What if you tax and somebody else doesn't tax. You're gonna get everybody to go there. That's an issue, an international issue that we constantly have to deal with.
Speaker 0 And the second question you have, is suppose you solve that problem, and you deliver money. Okay? To those who are not involved in the Ai economy. What do they do? The first question you asked somebody whom me just met after the polite, you know, the polite exchanges is What do you do?
Speaker 0 Mh. Right? Well, people defined themselves by their profession, and it's gonna be difficult if you don't have a profession. And people will spend more time self searching, they'll more time in the arts, it's more time and leisure. I understand that.
Speaker 0 If I have to bet, it will annihilate many more jobs then it will create and it'll force a structural. Change in our economics, in our economic models and in our politics. And I'm not sure it's gonna go.
Speaker 1 And that's something we have to respond to at the nation level and just as a human civilization, both the threat of Ai to just us as a human species and then the effect on the jobs, And like you said, cybersecurity.
Speaker 0 And what do you think? You think you think it's gonna... We're gonna lose control?
Speaker 1 No. I... First of all I do believe maybe naive that it will create more jobs than it takes.
Speaker 0 Write that down. And we'll check. It's on record. And you know, we don't have we don't say we'll check it after our lifetime. No.
Speaker 0 We'll see in a few years.
Speaker 1 We'll see in a few years. I'm really concerned about cybersecurity and the nature of how that changes with the power of Ai. And in terms of existential threats, I think there be so much threats that aren't existential, came along the way that that's the thing I'm mostly concerned about. Mh versus Ai taking complete control and becoming sort of super seeding the human species although that is something you should consider seriously because of the exponential growth of its capability.
Speaker 0 It's exactly the exponential growth which we understand. Is before us, but we don't really... It's very hard to project forward.
Speaker 1 To really understand.
Speaker 0 That's right. Exactly right. So you know, I'm so I I deal with what I can and where I can affect something. I tend not to worry about things I don't control. Because there's a third point, there's no point.
Speaker 0 I mean, you have to decide what you're spending your time on. So I I think in practical terms, I think make will make israel really a formidable Ai power. We understand the limitation of scale, computing power. And other things, but I think within those limits, I think we can make here this miracle that we we did in many other things. You know, we do more with less.
Speaker 0 I don't care if it's water, the production of water or the of the production of knowledge or the production of cyber capabilities, defense and other. We just do more to with less. I think in ai, we're gonna to do a lot more with relatively small, but highly gifted population. Very gifted.
Speaker 1 So taking a small tangent as we talked about offline. I you have a a background in tech condo dough.
Speaker 0 Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1 Yeah. We mentioned Elon Musk. I've trained with both. This is a quick question who you have who are you betting on in a fight?
Speaker 0 Well, I refuse to answer that. I will say this.
Speaker 1 Such politician, you are.
Speaker 0 Yeah. Course. Here, I'm a politician. I'm openly telling you then I'm dodging the question. Okay?
Speaker 0 But I'll say this. You, I actually I spent 5 years in our special forces in the military. And we barely spent a minute. On Martial Arts. I actually learned Tae 1 later when I came to It wasn't even at Mit, at Mit, I think I did Karate, But when I came to the Un, I had a Martial arts expert taught me that window, though, which was kinda interesting.
Speaker 0 Now the question you really have to ask is why did we learn martial arts in this special elite unit? And the answer is, there's no point. If you sign the Indiana Jones, you know? There's no point. He's just...
Speaker 0 You know, pull the trigger. That's simple. Now, I don't expect anyone to pull the trigger on this combat and I'm I'm sure you'll to make sure that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, Martial Arts is it's kind of... It's bigger than just combat. It's just... Kind of journey of humility and.
Speaker 1 Has it's an art form It truly is an art. Mh But it's fascinating that these 2 figures in tech are facing each other. And I won't ask a question of who you would face and how you would do. But...
Speaker 0 Well, I'm I'm facing opponents all the time. All the time. Yeah. That's part of life. Part of.
Speaker 0 Part of life is... Not yet. I'm not sure about that.
Speaker 1 You balancing. You know so.
Speaker 0 No, part of life is competition. You know? If... But the only time competition ends is death, but political life economic life, cultural life is engaged continuously in creativity and competition and. The problem I have with that is as I mentioned earlier just before we began the podcast is that at a certain point, you want to put barriers to monopoly.
Speaker 0 And if you're in a really able competitor, you're gonna create a monopoly. That's what Peter Till says, is a natural course of things. It's what I learned and basically in the Boston Consulting group. If you a very able competitor, you'll create scale advantages that gives you the ability to lock out your competition. And as a prime minister, I you want to assure that there is competition in the markets.
Speaker 0 So you have to limit limit this competitive power at to certain point. And that becomes increasingly hard in in a world where everything is. Where do you define market segments? Where do you define monopoly? How do you do that?
Speaker 0 That is very that that actually conceptually, I find very challenging because of all the dozens of political economic reforms that I've made. The most difficult part is the conceptual part. Once you have, you've ironed it out. You say here's what I wanna do. Here's the right thing to do.
Speaker 0 That you have a practical problem of overcoming union resistance, political resistance, press you opponents from this or that corner, that's a practical matter. But if you have it conceptually defined, you can move ahead to reform economies or reform education or reform transportation, fine. And the question of the growing power of large companies, big tech companies to mono the markets because they're better at it. They provide a service. They provided lower cost rapidly declined cost.
Speaker 0 Where do you stop? Where do you where do you stop in a monopoly power is a crucial question because it also becomes now a political question. If you are mass enormous amount of economic power, which is information power, you know? That also mono the political process, which creates these these are real questions, that are not obvious. I don't have an obvious answer.
Speaker 0 Because as I said, as a nineteenth century Democrat, these are questions of the 20 century which people should should begin to think. Do you have a solution to that?
Speaker 1 The solution of a Monopoly growing arbitrarily unstoppable
Speaker 0 in power. Economic power, therefore in political power.
Speaker 1 I mean, some of that is regulation. Some of that is competition.
Speaker 0 You know where? To put to draw the line. Start breaking up At and 2, You know, it's not that simple.
Speaker 1 Well, I believe in the power of competition that there will always be somebody that challenges the big guys, especially in the space of Ai, the more open source movements are taking hold the more the little guy can become the big guy.
Speaker 0 So you're saying basically the regulatory, the regulatory instrument is the market.
Speaker 1 In large part, in most part. Mh. That's the hope. Maybe I'm the dream.
Speaker 0 That's been in many ways by policy up to now. Okay. That the best regulator is the market... The best regulator in economic economic activity is the market and the best regulator in political matters is a political market. That's called elections.
Speaker 0 That's what That's what regulates. You know, you have a lousy government and people make lousy decisions. Well, you don't need, you know, the wise men raised above the, you know, the the masses to decide what is go to what is bad. Let the masses decide. Let them vote every 4 years or whatever and They throw up.
Speaker 0 By the way it happened to me, there's life after political death. There's actually political life. I was really reelected 5 or 6 times and this is my sixth turn. So you know I believe in that, I'm not sure I'm not sure that in economic matters in the geometric growth, of tech companies that you'll always have the little guy, the nimble mammal, that will come out and slay the dinosaurs or overcome the dinosaurs starts. Which is the essentially what you said?
Speaker 1 Yeah. I wouldn't count out the little guy.
Speaker 0 You wouldn't count out the limit.
Speaker 1 Well I hope you're right. Well, let me ask you about this market of politics. So you have served 6 terms as prime minister over 15 years in power. May ask you again, human nature. Do you worry about the corrupting nature of power on you as a leader, and you a man?
Speaker 0 Not at all. Because I think that the again, the thing that drives me not is nothing but the mission that I took to assure the survival and thriving of the state, the Jewish state. That is its economic prosperity, but it's security and its ability to achieve peace with our neighbors, and I'm I'm committed to it. I think there's still There are many things that have been done. There are a few big things that I can still do, but it doesn't only depend on my sense of mission.
Speaker 0 It depends on The market as we say. Depends really on the will of the Israeli, voters and Israeli voters have decided to vote for me again again, even though I wield... No power in the press. No power in in many quarters here, and so on, nothing. I mean, I am probably I'm going to be very soon the longest serving prime minister in the last half century in the Western democracies, but that's not because I am mass great political power in any of the institutions.
Speaker 0 I remember I had a conversation with Sylvia Be who recently died and he said to me about... I don't know. 15 years ago. Or something like that. He said...
Speaker 0 So baby, how many how many of Israel's television stations. And do you have? And I said, none. You said do you have none? I have?
Speaker 0 Do you have... A said none. I have 2. He said, no, no. But what...
Speaker 0 You mean, you don't have any that you control. I said, not only do I have any none that I control. They're all against me? So it says so how do you win elections? And, you know, with both hands tied behind you back, and I said, the hard way.
Speaker 0 That's why, you know, I have the largest party, but I don't have many more seats that I would have if I had a sympathetic voice in the media. And Israel is until recently it was dominated completely by 1 side of the political spectrum that often vi solidified me, not not me because they viewed me as representing basically the conservative voices in Israel that are majority and So the idea that I'm an authoritarian dictators is ridiculous. I'm I would say Not merely a champion of democracy and democrat modernization I'm I believe ultimately the decision is with the voters and the voters even though they've had, they have constant constant press attacks. They have chosen to put me back in. So I don't believe in this thing of ama the corrupting power of if you don't have elections, if you don't have if you control the the means of influencing the voters, I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 0 But in my case, it's exact opposite. I have to constantly go elections, constantly you know, with a disadvantage that the major media outlets are very violently sometimes against me. But it's fine. And I keep on winning So I I don't know what you're talking. I would say the concentration of power lies elsewhere, not here.
Speaker 1 Well, you have been involved in several corruption cases. So how much corruption is there in Israel? And how do you fight it in your own party and in Israel?
Speaker 0 Well, you should ask a different question. What's happened to these cases? These cases of basically are collapsing and before our eyes, there was an event in which the judges the 3 judges are in my case called in the prosecution and said, you you're flagship, bribery chart. So called bribery charts. You know, it's gone.
Speaker 0 Doesn't exist. Before a single a single defense witness was called. And it sort of tells you that this thing is eva. It's it's quite astounding. Even that I have to say was covered even by the mainstream press in israel well because it's such an earthquake.
Speaker 0 So you know, a lot of these charges are not a lot. These charges will prove to be. Nothing. I always said, listen, I stand before the legal process. I don't claim that.
Speaker 0 Exempt from it in any way on the contrary. I think the truth will come out and it's coming out. And we see that not only that, but with other things. So I think it's kind of instructive. That, you know, no no politician has been more vi verified.
Speaker 0 No none has been put to such a... What is it about a point of 5000000000 she were used to sc. Scour my bank accounts sending people to the Philippines into Mexico into Europe and into America, and looking at everybody using Spy wear, the most advanced spy on the planet against my associates, blackmail male witnesses telling them, you know, think about your family, think about your wife, you know, you better tell us what you want. All that is coming out in the trial. So I would say that most people now are not asking are are no longer asking including my opponents started trickling in as the...
Speaker 0 As the stuff comes out, people are not saying, what did Netanyahu do because he apparently did nothing. What was done to him? Is something the people ask. What was done to... What was done to our democracy.
Speaker 0 What was done in the attempt, to put down somebody who keeps winning elections despite the handicap that I described. Maybe we can maybe we can nail them by framing him. And the 1 thing I can say about the the this court trial is that things are coming up and that's very good. Just objective things are coming out, changing the picture. So I would say the attempt to brand me as corrupt is falling on its face, but the thing that isn't being uncovered in the trial, such as the use, the use of spy wear, and on a politician, a politician surroundings, to try to shake them down and investigations, put them in flee written cells for 21 days, and divide their 84 year old mother to investigations without cause bringing in their mistress in the corridor, shaking them down.
Speaker 0 That's what people are asking. That corruption is what they want corrected.
Speaker 1 What is the top obstacle To peaceful coexistence of Israelis and palestinians. Let's talk about the big question of peace in this part of the world.
Speaker 0 Well, I think the reason you have the persistence of the Palestinian Israeli conflict. Goes back about a century is the persistent Palestinian refusal to recognize which a Jewish state, a nation state for the Jewish people in any boundary. That's why they opposed the establishment of the state of Israel before Lia, Now that's why they've opposed it. After we had a state. They oppose it when we were, we didn't have Judy Sum, the West Bank in our heads in Gaza on they didn't oppose it after we have it.
Speaker 0 Doesn't make a difference. It's basically their persistent refusal to recognize a Jewish state in any boundaries. And I think their tragedy is that they've been command for a century by leadership that refused to compromise with the idea of zion, namely that the Jews deserve a state in this part of the world. The territorial dispute is something else. You have a territorial dispute if you say, okay, you're living on this side.
Speaker 0 We're living on that side, let's decide where the border is and so on. That's not what the argument is. The Palestinian society, which is say itself fragmented. But all the factions agree, there shouldn't be a jury state anywhere. Okay?
Speaker 0 They just disagree between Hamas that says, oh, well, you should have it. We should get rid of it. With terror. And the others are saying we know we should also use political means to dissolve it. So that is...
Speaker 0 That is the problem.
Speaker 1 So even as part of a 2 state solution, they're still against the idea.
Speaker 0 Well, they don't want a state next to israel. They want state instead of israel. And they say if we get a state, we'll use it as a springboard to destroy the smaller Israeli estate, which is what happened when Israel unilaterally walked out of gaza and effectively established a hamas stake there. They didn't say, all, good. Now we have our own territory own state, Israel is no longer there, let's build peace, let's build economic projects.
Speaker 0 Let's our and franchise our people know. They turned it into a basically into a bastion for which they fired 10000 rockets into as well. When is your left Lebanon because we had terrorist attacks from there, then we had Lebanon taken over by hezbollah Ba terrorist organization that seeks to destroy as well. And therefore, every time we just walked out, what we got was not peace. We didn't give, you know territory for peace.
Speaker 0 We got territory for terror. That's what we had. And that's what would happen as long as the reigning ideology says we don't want Israel in any border. So the idea of 2 states assumes that you'd have on the other side, a state that wants to live in peace and not 1 that would be overtake by Iran in its proxies in 2 seconds and become a base to destroy as well. And therefore, I think that most Israelis today if you ask them, they're Yeah.
Speaker 0 They're they're... They they'd say it's it's not gonna work in that concept. So what do you do? What do you do with the Palestinians? Okay.
Speaker 0 They're still there. And I don't... Unlike them. I don't want to throw them out. I...
Speaker 0 They're gonna be living here, and we're gonna be living here in an area which is by the way, to so understand. The area, the entire area of So called West Bank and Israel is the width of the Washington Belt more or less. Just a little more, not much more. You can't really divide it up. You can't say, well, you're gonna fly in, who controls the airspace.
Speaker 0 Well, it takes you about 2.5 minutes to cross it with a regular you know, 7 to 4 7. Okay? With the fighter plane, it takes you minute and half. Okay. So you're not...
Speaker 0 How are you gonna divide the Well, you're not gonna to divide it. This rule is gonna control that airspace and the electromagnetic space and and so on. So security has to be in the hands of israel. My view of how you solve this problem is that is a simple principle. The palestinians should have all the powers to govern themselves and none of the powers to threaten israel, which basically means that the responsibility for overall security remains with Israel.
Speaker 0 And from a practical point of view, we've seen that every time that Israel leaves a territory and and takes its security forces out of an area. It immediately is overtake by Hamas Hezbollah isabella or geo, who basically are committed to the destruction of Israel and also bring misery to the Palestinians or arab subjects. So I think that that principle is less than perfect sovereignty because you're taking certain amount of powers, sovereign powers. Specially security away. But I think it's the only practical solution.
Speaker 0 So people say, oh, but it's not a perfect state. I said, okay. Call it what you will, call it you know, I don't know. Limited sovereignty call it the autonomy plus call it, whatever you wanna call it. But that's the reality.
Speaker 0 And right now, if you ask Israelis across the political spectrum, except the very hard left, Most Israelis agree with that. They don't really debate it.
Speaker 1 So 2 state solution, where is your control the security of the entire region?
Speaker 0 We don't call it quite that. I mean, there are different names, but the idea is yes, is will control security and the it's the entire area. It's this tiny area between the Jordan River and the sea. I mean, it's it's like you know, you can walk it in. Not 1 afternoon.
Speaker 0 If you're really fit, you can do it in a in a day. Less less than a day. I did.
Speaker 1 So the expansion of settlements in the West Bank has been a top priority for this new government. People may harshly criticize this as contributing to escalating is your past intention. What do... Can can you understand that perspective that this expansion of settlements is not good for this 2 state solution.
Speaker 0 Yeah. I can understand. I can understand what they're saying and they don't understand why they're wrong. First, most Israelis we live in Judaism Sami Maryland living in urban blocks. And that accounts for about 90 percent of the population.
Speaker 0 Okay? And everybody recognizes that those urban blocks are going to be part of israel own in any future arrangement. So they're really arguing about something that has already been decided and agreed upon really by Americans by even by our many arabs. They don't think that israel what was going to dismantle these these blocks. You know you look outside the window here and within about a kilometer or mile from here, as you have jerusalem, half of Jerusalem grew naturally beyond the old 19 67 border.
Speaker 0 So you're not going to just dismantle half of Jerusalem that's not going to happen. And most people don't expect that. Then you have the other 10 percent scattered in tiny, you know, small communities. And people said, well, you're gonna have to take them out. Why?
Speaker 0 Why? Remember that in pre 19 67 Israel. We have a over a million a half arabs here. We don't say oh Israel has to be ethical clients from arabs in order to have from its arab citizens in order to have peace. Of course not jews can live among arabs and arabs can live among jews.
Speaker 0 And what is what is being advanced by those people who say that we can't live in our ancestral Homeland. In these disputed areas. Nobody says that this is... Palestinian areas. And nobody says that these are Au israelis.
Speaker 0 We claim them. They claim them. We've only been attached to this land for oh 3500 years, But, you know, but it's a dispute. I agree. But I don't agree that we should throw out the arabs.
Speaker 0 And I don't think that they should throw out the jews. And if somebody said to, the only way we're going to have peace with Israel is to have an ethnically cleansed Palestinian entity, you know. That... That's our outrageous. If you said the only way you know, you shouldn't have Jews living and I don't know in suburbs of London or New York and so on.
Speaker 0 I don't think that will play too well. The world is actually advancing a solution that says that that juice cannot live among arabs and arabs cannot live among jews. I I don't think that's the right way to do it. And I I think there's a solution out there. But I don't think we're gonna get to it, which is less than perfect sovereignty, which involves Israeli security, maintained for the entire territory by Israel, which involves not rooting out anybody not kicking out, uproot arabs or Palestinians, they're gonna live in enclave in sovereign Israel and we're going to live in probably in enclave there, probably through transportation continuity as opposed to control continuity.
Speaker 0 That is, you know, for example, you can have tunnels and overpass and so on that connect the various communities. We're doing that right now, we're doing that right now and it actually works. I think there is a solution to this. It's not the perfect world that people think of because that model I think doesn't apply here. If it applies elsewhere, it's a question.
Speaker 0 The I don't think so. But I think there's 1 other thing. And that's the main thing that I've been involved in. You know, people said, if you don't solve the Palestinian problem, You're not gonna get to the arab world. You're not gonna have peace with the arab world.
Speaker 0 Remember the palestinians are about 2 percent of the arab world. And the other, you know, the other 98 percent, you're not gonna make peace with them and that's our goal. And for a long time, people accepted that. After the initial peace treaties is with Egypt, with the prime minister mister Begging of The And presidents said out of Egypt. And then with Jordan between prime and Robin and Ken.
Speaker 0 For quarter Century, we didn't have any more treaties because people said you gotta go through the Palestinians. And the Palestinians, they don't want a dissolution of the kind that I described or any kind except the 1 that involved the dissolution of the state of Israel. So we could wait another half century. And I said, no, I mean, I don't think that we should accept the premise. We have to wait for the Palestinians because we'll have to wait forever.
Speaker 0 So I decided to do it differently. I decided to go directly to the Arab capitals that and to make the historic Abraham accord and essentially reversing the equation, not a piece process that goes inside out, but outside in. And we went directly to the the these countries and forge these these breakthrough peace accord with the United Arab emirates with Bahrain with Morocco and Sudan, and we're now trying to expand that in a quarter with Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 1 What does it take to do that with Saudi Arabia with... The Saudi Crown Prince Mo mohammed Bi summer.
Speaker 0 You know, I'm a student of history and I read a lot of history and I read that, you know, in the versailles. Discussions after World war 1, President Woodrow Wilson said, I believe in open covenants, openly arrived at. I have my correction. I believed in open covenants secretly arrived at. So there's we're not going to advance a Saudi israeli peace by having it publicly discussed and in any case, it's a decision of the of the Saudi if if they wanna do it.
Speaker 0 But there's obviously a neutral interest. So here's my view. If we try to wait for the 2 percent, in order to get to the 98 percent, we're going to fail and we have failed. If we go to the 98 percent, we have a much greater chance of persuading the 2 percent You know why? Because the 2 percent the Palestinian hope to van the state of israel not make peace with it.
Speaker 0 Is based among other things on the assumption that eventually the 98 percent the rest of the arab world will kick in and destroy the Jewish state, help them to dissolve or destroy the Jewish state. When that hope is taken away, then you begin to have a turn to the realistic solutions of coexistence, by the way, the require compromise on Israeli side to. And you, I'm perfectly cognizant of that and willing to do that. But I think a realistic compromise will be struck much more readily when the conflict between Israel and the arab states, the arab worlds is effectively solve. And I think we're on that path.
Speaker 0 It was a conceptual change just like you know, I've been involved in a few. I told you the conceptual battle is always the most difficult 1. And, you know, I had to fight this battle to convert a semi socialist estate into a free market capital estate. And after to say that most people today recognize the power of competition and the benefits of free markets. So we also had to fight this battle that said you have to go through the, you know, the the the Palestinian straight, S str RAIT to get to the other places.
Speaker 0 There's no way to avoid this. You have to go through this imp pass And I think that now people are recognizing that would go around it and probably circle back and that I think actually gives hope not only to have an Arab Israeli piece, but circling back in Israeli Palestinian peace. And obviously this is not something that you find in the sound bites and so on. But in the popular discussion of the press, but that ideas perm. And I think it's the right idea because I think it's
Speaker 1 the only 1 that will work. So expanding the circle piece just to linger on that requires... What secretly talking man to man, human to human to leaders of other nations,
Speaker 0 and theoretically right.
Speaker 1 Theoretically. Okay. Well, let me ask you another theoretical question. On the circle of peace as a student history, looking at the ideas of war peace, what do you think can achieve peace in the war in Ukraine, looking at another part of the world. If you if you consider the fight for peace in this part of the world, how can you apply that to that other part of the world between Russia and Ukraine now?
Speaker 0 I think it's 1 of the the savage horrors of history and 1 of the great tragedies that is occurring. And let me say in advance that that if I have any opportunity to... Use my contacts. To help bring about and into this tragedy, I'll do so. I've had...
Speaker 0 I know both leaders, but I don't just jump in and and assume, you know, if there be a desire to certain point. Because the conditions have created the possibility of helping stop this this carnage then I'll do it. And that's why I choose my words carefully because I think that may be the best the best thing that I could do. Look, I think what you see in Ukraine is what happens if you have. Territorial designs on a territory by a country that has nuclear weapons.
Speaker 0 And that to me you see the change in the equation. Now I think that people are loa to use nuclear weapons. I'm not sure that I would think that the the Russian side would use them with happy abandon, I don't think that's the Christian. But you see how the whole configuration changes when that happens. So you have to be very careful on how you resolve this conflict.
Speaker 0 So it doesn't Well, doesn't go off the rails, so to speak. That's... By the way, the the the corollary area is here. We don't want Iran. Which is an aggressive force with an un just aggressive ideology of dominating first the Muslim World and then eliminating Israel and then becoming a global force, having nuclear weapons, it's totally different.
Speaker 0 When they don't have it. Then when they do have it, and that's why 1 of my main goals has been to prevent Iran from having the means to means of mass destruction which should be used atomic bombs and which they openly say will be used against us, and you can understand that. How to bring about an into your ukraine, I have ideas. I don't think I don't think it's worthwhile discussing them now because they might They might be required later on. Do you believe in
Speaker 1 the power of conversation since you have contacts with Lot Z and Vladimir putin. Just leaders sitting in a room and discussing how the end of war can be brought about.
Speaker 0 I think it's a combination of that but... I think it's the question of interest and whether you have to get both sides to a point where they think that that conversation will lead to something useful. I don't think they're there right now.
Speaker 1 What part is of this is just basic human ego, stubborn ness, all of this between leaders, which is why I bring up the power of conversation of sitting in a room realizing where human beings, And then there's a history that connects Ukraine and Russia.
Speaker 0 Yeah. I don't think they're in a position to into a room right now. Realistically. I mean... And you can pause that it would be good if that could happen, but entering the room is sometimes more complicated than what happens in the room.
Speaker 0 And there's a lot of you know, pre negotiation on the negotiation, then you negotiate endlessly industry on the negotiation. They're not even there.
Speaker 1 It took a lot of work for you to get to handshake in the past.
Speaker 0 It's an interesting question. How did the piece the Abraham accord, How did that begin? You know, I mean, the... We had, you know, we had decades? But 70 years where they're...
Speaker 0 Or 65 years where these people, you know, would not meet openly when... Or even secretly with Israeli leader. Yeah, we had the the Moss massage been making contacts with them all the time and so on. But how do we break the ice to the top level of leadership? Well, we broke their eyes because I took a very strong stance against Iran.
Speaker 0 And the Gulf States understood that Iran is a formidable danger to them, so we had a common interest. And the second thing is that because of the economic reforms that we produced in Israel, israel became a technological powerhouse and that could help their nations not only in terms of anything just better the life of their peoples And the combination of the of the desire to have, you know some kind of protection against Iran or some kind of cooperation against Iran and civilian economic cooperation, came to a head when I gave a speech in the American Congress, which I didn't do hearted. I had to decide to challenge a sitting American president. And on the the so called Iranian deal, which I thought would pave Iran's path with gold to be an effective nuclear power and that's what would happen. So I went there.
Speaker 0 And in the... Course of giving that speech before the joint session of Congress. Our delegation received calls from Gulf States, who said, we can't believe what your prime minister is doing. He's challenging, you know. President of the United States.
Speaker 0 Well, I had no choice I mean, because I thought my country's own existence was imp, and remember, we always understand through changing of administrations that America under... No matter what leadership is always the irr and indispensable ally of Israel, and we'll always remain that. We can have arguments as we have. But in the families, we say, in the Mis, you know, it's the the family. But nevertheless, I was forced to take a stand.
Speaker 0 That produced calls from... Gulf states that ultimately led to Clan Dust meetings that ultimately flower into the the Abraham accord, then and I think we're at a point where the idea of ending the arab Israeli conflict, not the Palestinian Israeli conflict. The arab Israeli conflict can happen. I'm not sure it will. It depends on a quite a few things, but it could happen.
Speaker 0 And if it happens, it might open up the ending of the Israeli Islamic conflict. Remember the air world is a small part it's an important part, but it's there are large Islamic populations and could bring about and then to the in the historic between islam and Judaism and it could be a great thing. So I'm looking at this larger thing. You know, you can you can be h by saying, well, well, you know, you've had this, you know, this hiccup in Gaza or, you know, this this or that thing happening in in the past ends. I don't I don't...
Speaker 0 It's important for us because we want security. But I think the larger question is can we break out into a much wider piece and ultimately come back and make... The the peace between Israel and the Palestinians are rather than waiting to solve that and and never getting to the the to paint under larger Canvas. I I wanna paint under larger Canvas and come back to the Palestinian and Israeli conflict.
Speaker 1 As you're right about in your book, what have you learned about life from your father?
Speaker 0 My father was a greatest historian. And well, he taught me several things. He said that the... The first condition for living organism is to identify danger and time because if you don't, you could be devoured, you could be destroyed very quickly. And that's the nature of human conflict.
Speaker 0 In fact, for the Jewish people. We didn't. We lost the capacity to identify danger in time and we were almost devoured and destroyed by the Nazi threat. So when I see somebody parody, the Nazi goal of destroying the Jewish aid, I... Try to mobilize the country and the world in time because I think Iran is a global threat, not only a threat to as well.
Speaker 0 That's the first thing. The second thing is I once asked him before I got elected, I said, well, what do you think is the most important quality for a prime minister to of visual? And he came back with a question. What do you think? And I said, well, you have to have vision and you have to have the the flexibility of navigating and working towards that vision, be flexible, but understand where you're heading, And you said, well, you need that for anything.
Speaker 0 You need it for... You know, if you're a university president or if you're a leader of a corporation or anything. Anybody would have to have that. I said, alright. So so what do you need for it to be the the the leader of israel.
Speaker 0 He said and came back to me with a word that stunned me. He said, education. You need a abroad and deep education, or you'll be at the mercy of your clerk. Or the press whatever. You have to you have to be able to to do that.
Speaker 0 You as I spend time in government. Or being reelected by the people of Israel, I I recognize more and more how, how right it was. You you need to constantly ask yourself. Where's the direction we want take the country? How do we achieve that goal, but also understand that new disciplines are being added, You have to learn all the time?
Speaker 0 You have to learn all all the time, you have to add to your intellectual capital all the time. Kissing said that he wrote that once you enter public life, you begin to draw on your intellectual capital and it will be depleted very quickly if you stay a long time, I disagree with that. I think you have to constantly constantly increase your understanding of things as they changed because my father was right, you need to broaden and deepen your education as you go along, you can't just sit back and say, well, I studied some things and university in College or in Boston or it. Mit, and that's enough. You know, I've done it.
Speaker 0 No. Learn learn learn learn learn never stop.
Speaker 1 And if I may suggest as part of the education, I would add in a little literature, maybe Dos In the in in the plenty of time you have as a prime minister to read.
Speaker 0 I read him, but I'll tell you what I think is bigger than Dos ask. Oh, no.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Who's that?
Speaker 0 Not who's that, but what's that? Mh. I was the Dan rather came to see me with his grandson. Bigger few years ago. And he asked me the the grandson asked me it was a student in in Ivy league college and he said, he's 18 years old, and he he wants to study to enter politics.
Speaker 0 Mh. And he said, what's? What's the most important thing that I have to study to enter a political life? And I said you have 3 things you have to study. Okay.
Speaker 0 History, history, and history. That's that's the fundamental discipline for political act. But then you have to study other things. Study economics, study politics and and so on and study study the military, if you have... If you...
Speaker 0 I had advantage because I spent some years there, so I learned a lot of that, but I had to... Acquire the other disciplines, and you never require enough. So read Read Read. And by the way, if I have to choose, I read history, history and history. Good works of history, not lousy books.
Speaker 1 Last question. You've talked about a survival of a nation. Mh you yourself are a mortal being, Do you contemplate your mortality? Do you contemplate your death or you're afraid of death?
Speaker 0 Aren't you? Yes. Who's is not? I mean, if you're a conscience, if you're being with conscious. I mean, what are the unhappy things about the Human brain as it...
Speaker 0 It can contemplate its own its own demise. And so we have to... We all make our compromises with this. But I I think the question is what leaves on. What lives on beyond us?
Speaker 0 And I think that you have to define how much of how poster do you want to influence? I kind influence. The course of humanity, we are specs, you know, little specs, So that's not the issue. But in my case, I've devoted my life to a very defined purpose and that is to assure the future and security and I would say permanent, but that is obviously a limited thing of the Jewish state. And the Jewish people.
Speaker 0 And I don't think 1 can exist without the other. So I've devoted my life to that, and I hope that in my time on this earth and in my ears and office and have contributed to that
Speaker 1 where you had 1 heck of a life starting from Mit, to 6 terms as prime minister. Thank you for this stroll through human history and for this conversation, it was an honor.
Speaker 0 Thank you. And I hope you come back to us so many times. It's... Remember it's the innovation nation. It's a robust democracy.
Speaker 0 I don't believe all the stuff that you being told it'll remain that it kind be any other way and it's... I'll tell you the other thing. It's the best ally every the United States. It'll and its importance is growing by the day because our capacities in the information world. They're growing by the day we need a coalition of the like minded smarts.
Speaker 0 This is a smart nation, and we share the basic values. Of freedom and liberty with the United States. So coalition of the smarts means Israel is the sixth eye and America has no better ally.
Speaker 1 Alright. Now off Mike, I'm gonna force you to finally tell me. We're gonna win you on Oscar mark Zuckerberg, but that's that's a good time to. We ran out of time here.
Speaker 0 I'll tell you outside. But
Speaker 1 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Benjamin netanyahu. To support the podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from a hot Gandhi. An Eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind. Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.