Summary Top NonClinical Income Streams for Physicians (Youtube) youtu.be
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Speaker 0 Think we can kinda get started. Let me just welcome everybody. So, hey, everyone. Welcome again. This is part of the Gentem webinar series.
Speaker 0 This is a special webinar with doctor John Eureka, and the title is life outside medicine. And the focus is the best and most secure non clinical jobs and income streams that a physician just like yourself can look into. A lot of physicians, whether you're an academic setting or even in private practice, are thinking about ways that you can add to your income stream. And more importantly, you know, you're full of a lot of knowledge. There has to be other ways outside of the clinical setting to expand your career.
Speaker 0 So doctor Eureka is, a fantastic source for that. I actually found him, through my search on online. He has a podcast and a blog called the non, nonclinicalphysicians.com. Correct, doctor Eureka?
Speaker 1 Yes. That's the website. The podcast is physician nonclinical careers.
Speaker 0 Physician nonclinical careers. Got it. And then the website is nonclinicalphysicians.com. Correct. Fantastic.
Speaker 0 And I'll drop that in the chat for everybody. And so on that website and podcast, I mean, he he really dives into a lot of, great, pathways and and and resources in terms of how you can find these income streams and careers, you know, outside of medicine, whether you wanna do part time or full time. It's been a fantastic resource. I've shared it with many of my, colleagues and that's kind of a good intro to introduce myself. My name is Omar Khateeb.
Speaker 0 I'm the head of growth here at Gentem Health. Former, medical student gone into tech, and so serving physicians like yourself is very important. And we're joined by doctor John Eureka. Doctor Eureka, before we you know, I give a little bit of a background on Gentium, can you give us a little, intro to yourself?
Speaker 1 Well, I'll say I'm a family physician, and I've held 6, 7, 8 different nonclinical jobs, some part time, some full time. And I will get into that in the, the process of the presentation. And I do want to remind people that you're actually a guest on my podcast, which is going to be released in a couple of weeks. So, look for that. And I really, I, yeah, it was it was fun.
Speaker 1 It was a fun interview.
Speaker 0 It was a fantastic interview. And and I, you know, helping positions is a passion of mine. My father was a surgeon, for over 35 years. And so helping them when it comes to branding and marketing is a, is a, is, is a passion of mine. I loved being on your podcast.
Speaker 0 Hope to come back on and we gotta have you on our podcast as well soon. But webinar was a first good step. So that being said, let me, give everybody just a quick intro about Gentem, and there's a special offer for all the live attendees. So let me walk you guys through this, and then we're gonna jump right into the presentation. So let me just file over here.
Speaker 0 And doctor Urika, you can see my, slides. Correct?
Speaker 1 I can. Perfect. Perfect.
Speaker 0 So and then I think there's a good, you know, segue into into your presentation as well. So, you know, here's a problem that has been existent for a long, long time that private medical practices, they're struggling because, you know, reimbursements, billing claims, these things have gotten more and more complex, very unpredictable, and so it's hard to stay open. It's something that my own father, had difficulty with when he was practicing, and it hasn't gotten better. And so when you look at the revenue cycle, right, you you have your medical practice in the middle. You have to deal with patient payments, you have to do a health care provider insurance pay.
Speaker 0 And then on top of it, physicians have no choice, but you have to deal with a billing company. If you're a larger practice, hey, it's great, you can have an internal team, but even having an internal team isn't enough. You look for a 3rd party. So you're dealing with so many different people just to essentially get paid. Think about it in other businesses.
Speaker 0 How many people would not even start a company if they didn't know how they would be able to get paid? But for some reason, medicine, this is common. Right? It's a big problem. And when we look at that pathway, this is what it looks like.
Speaker 0 It's all these, you know, little steps, and this is just a high level. And you have to do all of these things. If you mess up once, you don't get paid on time, you get paid later. You don't get even paid at all. So it's no wonder that physician burnout has gone up more and more private medical practices are being acquired, and we're we're seeing this culture of the patient doctor relationship go away because larger corporations are buying up physician practices.
Speaker 0 Right? Now this is where Gentem comes into into play. It's something that is very, special and close to us. And our whole vision is reviving private medical practices and helping these providers stay independent. Our main mission, we wanna simplify, accelerate, and increase how reimbursements come to you.
Speaker 0 That way you never have to worry about revenue again, and you can focus on what you went to medical school for, which is to focus on patient care. And our our large vision is that if we do that mission very well, we're gonna help revive private medical practice and help providers like you stay independent. Our name even is very special because it's Latin for the word revival. And so you take out that 3rd party and Gentium really becomes integrated into your practice. We're a tech enabled service and a platform.
Speaker 0 And so when you look at this, revenue cycle right now, once Gentem gets involved, we end up taking care of all of these things. And so really you just end up focusing on capturing and submitting your codes, following up the patients and collecting payment. That way you focus on running a clinical practice instead of getting bogged down with all this administrative headache and costs. This is sort of what our Gentem, dashboard looks like. You can see everything that's going on from the claims that you submit, how much you're getting paid, and what the allowances are among many, many other things.
Speaker 0 It's all data driven plus we're the only company that actually does a cash advancement. So we recommend in many positions you'll hear now talk about it was when you expand, don't go get a loan from a bank because they don't understand your business nor do they care. Gentium immediately uses your own practice revenue through your procedures to advance 85 percent of the expected claim reimbursement. And then when we advance that payment, we take on the risk and we're incentivized to collect the remaining balance. To your right, this is an example of us great customer of ours, Vein Health Clinic down in Florida, who acquired a $2,000,000 surgical center all through advanced payments and not doing a bank loan.
Speaker 0 So we're really here on a mission to help private medical practices like yourselves, stay independent and thrive and, of course, revive this culture of medicine. And our special author is that we have a free demo and revenue cycle assessment for all the attendees. I'm gonna drop a link right now in the chat, and you guys can take advantage of it there. I highly recommend it. It there's no pressure to use our services, but it's a great way for you to get an idea of what's going on in your practice and make some decisions.
Speaker 0 Whether you decide to go with us or not, that's not the point. The point is that we're trying to help. And upon putting that link in the chat, I also encourage you all submit questions from now because our q and a gets, filled up rather quickly. So throughout the presentation, if you think of a question submitted, we'll get right into the q and an asset. Anything we can't answer, we'll follow-up the email.
Speaker 0 But I went ahead and dropped that link to all the panelists. If you have a question, shoot me a message during the broadcast. I'll answer it and help you. And on that note, doctor Eureka, the floor is now yours.
Speaker 1 Alright. Thank you very much, Omar. Let's see. I'm going to I need your, ability to share my screen. I guess you have to give me that permission.
Speaker 0 Oh, that's kind of important. Right?
Speaker 2 Okay. I guess so. Here we go.
Speaker 0 You have you have full permission. You are now the host, the panelist, and the emcee. Got it.
Speaker 2 You got it? Alright.
Speaker 0 Let's rock and roll.
Speaker 1 I think we're on. You see my slides?
Speaker 2 Yes, sir. I do.
Speaker 1 Okay. So we're gonna talk about top options for a nonclinical job. Now for those that know me and some of you do, because I know I put this out in the Facebook group and to my email list, you know, that I basically talk about nonclinical and non traditional careers. But honestly, I mean, I, I think physicians should stay in practice and should take care to, you know, of themselves and remain in practice if they can, at least part time, we have patients that need us. And so, yeah, I was really interested in, in, in what Omar was saying about Gentium is, something that might be helpful.
Speaker 1 But anyway, in spite of that, there comes a time when you just, you just have to make a change and either need to get some kind of a side gig, something that'll bring in a little extra income so you can cut back on your clinical or potentially just completely leave practice at some point, if not in retirement, you know, sometimes even earlier. So I wanna talk about just a couple of things having to do with that potential transition. 1st, I'll give you a little bit about my story. I said, give you a little bit more detail earlier. And basically I'm a family physician.
Speaker 1 I went into practice with 2 other physicians. When I finished my residency, I was doing a full breadth of all the family medicine type activities from obstetrics to taking care of babies and so forth and so on. During the 1st 2 or 3 years, I wasn't really that busy. I had to grow my own practice. And so I had time to moonlight and there weren't really that many, clinical things to do.
Speaker 1 So I started doing some nonclinical things. I ended up working as a physician advisor for utilization management. I was doing some occupational medicine for the hospital and then became the medical director for that. I ended up getting an Miles per hour at some point. And then I started to think about, well, do I really enjoy medicine that much?
Speaker 1 And what will I do if I don't? And so I, I found a mentor and I learned about hospital management. So that was the thing that attracted me. I didn't mind going to meetings. I liked, to plan things and to run projects.
Speaker 1 And so I ended up, slowly reducing my practice and increasing my hospital work till I became the VPMA and then the chief medical officer for the hospital. And I did that role for 15 years. And during the last 4 years or so, I didn't see any patients at all. I do other things. I do some editing for CME manuscripts.
Speaker 1 So that's another little side job that I do. And so I want to talk about some of the things I did and really what's out there. And because I think if you're thinking about transitioning either part time or full time, I hear some typical concerns from time to time that most of my listeners on the podcast or the members of the Facebook group, which now has 16,000 physician members, all looking for nonclinical activities, they have these kind of concerns. So the first 1 is all I know is medicine. So it's like, okay.
Speaker 1 You feel like you've spent the first 8, 11, 17, whatever number of years while you're going through undergrad and medical school and so forth. You feel like you're niching down, so to speak. And we talk about in the business side of things and niche down, you know, to your audience and you feel like you're getting narrower and narrower and narrower. And then, wow, here I am. I'm not happy.
Speaker 1 I'm not fulfilled. I don't feel like I'm working in my zone of genius. What am I going to do? Because I've niched down so much. All I know is medicine, but this kind of a, it's a paradox or it's a it's a it's kind of an oxymoron because medicine is probably 1 of the most broad, let's say, fields, because it's built on biology and chemistry and physiology and anatomy and epidemiology and statistics.
Speaker 1 And, you know, you have to learn how to present, how to teach, how to analyze, you know, a report, how to run a team. In fact, I I want you to do a little thought experiment here. Let's say that you're in a ship out in the middle of the ocean and and your ship is going down. And there's 9 of you on this ship, and you have 3, rowboats or, life lifeboats for you to get off. You have 9 people.
Speaker 1 So you have a chef, an actor, a teacher, a salesman, maybe a plumber, a writer, a politician, a physician, and an engineer. And so you're gonna split up into 3 different boats, and you're getting your boat together. Well, I can tell you who I'd want in my boat. I'd want an engineer and a physician. Those are the 2 I think that are going to do the best at helping you survive.
Speaker 1 If you, if you find some place to to land your lifeboat. So employees or rather employers look at physicians as a very good employee. So if we're talking about employed positions, because we're reliable, we're accountable, we're meticulous, we're hardworking. We have a lot of grit. We determined, you know, we have a lot of positive skills, knowledge, and also personality wise.
Speaker 1 So to say, all I know is medicine is, is really, you know, is not valid because there's so much in medicine. Now this next 1 is really the more practical 1, which I understand, which is I don't know where to start. And that's why I'm gonna talk to you today about all these top options for a nonclinical job. If you think about it, who on earth would think that, you know, after going to undergrad and med school and residency and fellowship, that they would be thinking, well, I'm doing all that so I can do a different job when I'm 45 or 50 years old. I mean, nobody thinks that way.
Speaker 1 Most of us go into medicine. Basically, we make that decision when we're children, whether it's high school, college, even if, you know, in grad school, you're 22 years old, 23. You're still basically a child. You don't really know what you're going to want. You know, another 6, 8, 10 years down the road.
Speaker 1 So it's, we don't expect you. And there's no time in medical school or residency to teach you about the careers that come afterwards. So that's I'm gonna tell you about those today, but I want you to understand that there's a lot of self limiting beliefs that hold people back. Like, you know, it's a step down. It's a step back.
Speaker 1 You know, I'm a I'm I'm abandoning my career. And that's not really true. I mean, that's like saying that an attorney who becomes a judge is abandoning being an attorney. Well, no. I mean, they're doing something in a way that's better, obviously has more prestige.
Speaker 1 Same thing with a physician who goes on to become a medical writer or a CMO at a hospital like me. I had much more of an impact on the patients I was affecting in my hospital as a CMO than I did as a physician seeing patients 1 at a time. So I I'm gonna that's all I'm gonna say about the mindset at this point. I do like to remind people, though, that this is the philosophy or these are the principles that I follow. And the reason I do the podcast and why I have this nonclinical career academy and the other things that I do to help physicians who have made that decision that they want to do something different, nontraditional, nonclinical, whatever it may be.
Speaker 1 And that is that I consider us all to be family. You know, we're part of a tribe or a guild or something like that, but we've got had a shared experience. You know, it's like the seals, the Navy seals, or, or, you know, the police force or the military or whatever it may be where you're together for years and you're going through a certain kind of indoctrination. Actually, obviously, it's also education. We all therefore deserve a career that we love.
Speaker 1 Now, everybody deserves a career that they love. You know, we shouldn't work in jobs, you know, that don't bring us some degree of, you know, fulfillment satisfaction, but especially after spending 11 to 17 years in your training, the least you can expect is at the end of that, you should at least be happy with what you're doing and fulfilled and get some satisfaction out of it. So the other thing that I bring up quite a bit and I believe in is that we're all natural leaders. Now, I'm not saying that every nonclinical job or career that you pursue, you need to be a leader in that 1. But if you're working in any industry where there's others around you that are not physicians, you're naturally going to be looked at as leader.
Speaker 1 And if you want to do those things, if you want to express that leadership, then by all means you should be able to, and you will be able to. So let's see, where are we going from here? Well, I have to bring out my alter ego here and, his name is Morpheus. So before we get in, I want to warn you. Some people call me Morpheus and I need to tell you, this is your last chance after this.
Speaker 1 There's no turning back. You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe and continue to live the life as a flunky trapped in the medical industrial complex. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Thank you, Morpheus.
Speaker 1 So some of you, if you've never seen this before, you're going to be sort of shocked by how many actual options there are out there. All right. So I'm just gonna start with what I started with, and I'm going to run through these relatively quickly. I don't want to bore you, but I wanna give you a high level overview of just these are the most popular. And, I've got a handout at the end that has 70 nonclinical and nontraditional careers, but I'm going to talk about 20, 25 or so right now.
Speaker 1 So I started doing the utilization management. Now they grew up, they had kind of started in the hospital environment. Nowadays, most and, benefits management type of physicians are working more for a third party or directly for an insurance company. But there's still the jobs in the hospital setting, mostly part time where you have to interface with physicians and explain, you know, what they need to document in order to, you know, allow the patient to stay another day in the hospital or whether to be put in an observation or an inpatient bed. So this is, this is a good entry point for people.
Speaker 1 And it's actually the most common topic in the nonclinical, physician nonclinical career hunters Facebook group is how to get a job in basically benefits management or utilization management. The other 1 at the hospital, very common clinical documentation improvement, extremely important hospital, CFOs ton better. And when I was CMO, we received the top 100 designation for 6 years of like the last 10 years I was there. And I'd say half of it was based on the fact that we had a really robust clinical documentation improvement. It's very, important.
Speaker 1 There's actually consulting jobs in this area, which I'm going to talk about later. But if you're in the hospital setting, if you're part of the medical staff, you should look at you. You should look at clinical documentation improvement. You should definitely look at informatics. This is growing 20 years ago.
Speaker 1 This essentially did not exist. As we started using EMRs and physician order entry, we needed medical informaticists, and then we needed medical directors for informatics. And then we need a chief informatic chief medical information officer. So it's an entire industry within the hospital industry that if you're interested, there are a lot of jobs available. Now I did want to mention something.
Speaker 1 I did mention this term medical director. And so I thought, well, I'm, I'm going to focus on this for 1 minute. If you hear a job that's called medical director or chief medical officer or chief medical, anything, it has to be a physician doing that job. Obviously, that's why the term medical is in there. So remember, these jobs are not a step back.
Speaker 1 These are really a step forward or a step up because you can't put someone else, you can't put a nurse or pharmacist in their job. It's like, it's a medical position, even though it's a nonclinical. So I think you need to think of it that way. So CMI O and then quality huge, you know, we've had quality improvement in patient safety forever, and now we're seeing more of physician advisors for quality medical directors for quality, and then chief quality officers where they'll be on a, in a big institution or in a system, and they'll have a CQL and they'll have the CMO. They'll have the system CMO and, all kinds of reporting arrangements within that.
Speaker 1 But if you like quality, I mean, it really does impact patient care a lot. So that's where we lead up to the CMO, CMI. Oh, there's actually a patient safety or or chief safety officers, medical safety officers, patient safety officers now that are physicians there's chief integration officers that are physicians. And so this whole area of, of hospital executives is growing. So let's get away from the hospital setting for a minute.
Speaker 1 And let's talk about a lot of sort of random ones. Now, the reason I thought of this 1 and put this slide up is because when I was in the hospital, obviously there was a lot of things that had to be surveyed and had to be certified or approved or accredited. So I was actually a surveyor for the accreditation council for CME at the top left there. That's another part time job where you can make money because they actually pay to do the surveys. I did surveys for the state of Illinois, also the medical society.
Speaker 1 They didn't pay us. We're volunteers, but the ACCME pays. But I didn't put it up there for that reason. I put it there because the person that runs the ACCME and, oh, and has always run the ACCME. It has always been a physician.
Speaker 1 So, that, you know, NCQA has physicians working for it. Your act has, physicians working for it. Obviously joint commission has physician surveyors on other teams. There are other organizations I talked to 1 of my, well, actually it wasn't a podcast guest. I was gonna say it was a guest, but, no, it was just someone that contacted me and wanted to tell me about a job that he had discovered, and he wanted me to share it.
Speaker 1 And that is a c g m e surveyor. He had been a, a, he was the head of the 1 of the residencies or a fellowship at his institution. And, with that experience, he was eligible when he started to slow down to become a surveyor for the ACGME. And, so he was recommending that he liked it. And there were several other physicians that were, you know, working part time and some that were doing full time work.
Speaker 1 So keep that in mind too. Now medical writer, you you know, as I go through these things, some are large areas and some are kind of limited. Medical writing is actually a very big area. There's at least 5 or 6 types of medical writing. If you want to break it down on the 1 end, you've got technical medical writing.
Speaker 1 You can do that as an, as a freelancer. But, I talked to a guest who was a freelance medical writer, mostly doing journalistic writing. And she, ended up getting a job at a CRO, which is a contract research organization that usually works for a pharmaceutical or medical device company. And they hired her as a technical medical writer. It's just very happy about that because she was making more money and she had better hours and she didn't have to worry about finding her own work.
Speaker 1 You could have medical writers working in the educational arena. That could be for patient education. It could be for physician, you know, CME could be for other clinicians. And then you have journalistic writing where you're writing for, let's say, a publication direct to the public and patients or, publications geared for physicians. Had a guest who was, a writer.
Speaker 1 Well, she wasn't really a writer. She was, the head of a national podiatry organization. And she had the responsibility as the president of that organization to put out the newsletter every month. And so she got a lot of experience writing and editing. And so she was hired by, I think it was podiatry today to be a full time editor.
Speaker 1 So that worked for her. And she got out of clinical because that was something that she wanted to do. So a lot of jobs there. I'm going to not talk more about medical writing, but there is a, what I call medical communications overlaps a lot with medical writing. Basically, if you're, if you're a medical writer and you're, you're willing to work for 1 of these agencies, that's on this slide.
Speaker 1 These are all agencies that put together marketing materials for pharmaceutical companies and device companies. And that's not just an ad. It's everything from a PowerPoint presentation to a, audio visual or a multimedia presentation, a huge meeting. Maybe you'd be responsible for the displays there. I think sometimes includes writing for some of the technical on the package inserts or things related to the regulatory.
Speaker 1 And so every 1 of those spheres there, those circles is a company that hires most of them hire physicians as part of that team. You may be the only physician on the team if it's a very small, narrow therapeutic area, but there are certainly jobs out there. And my guest that was doing this job was actually a freelance writer and, and they, you know, like a coach and a consultant. And somebody just reached out to her on LinkedIn and invited her to apply for a job, which she then gets. She got, she wasn't even looking for the job.
Speaker 1 So, and she loved it. Now I'm going to shift gears again, insurance, who would know that there's such a thing as insurance medicine? Well, there is, and there's actually a society of insurance medicine, and you can learn about insurance medicine by joining that society. Most of the things we're talking about today do have societies or associations, either multidisciplinary or some that are just for physicians. But life insurance medicine is a definite field.
Speaker 1 I've talked to life insurance, physicians who are medical directors. I know 1 that was actually a CMO, and they love their jobs. It's intellectually very stimulating. It involves absolutely no liability whatsoever. The hours are good.
Speaker 1 The vacations are good. The pay is good. So it I would if I was gonna do it over, I would look into life insurance medicine or expert witness. I think those would be 2 in addition to the CMO role that I had. So we'll talk about the expert witness in a moment.
Speaker 1 There's other types of insurance. Now, obviously, I think you can also have a medical director for a disability insurance company. And again, they're, they're helping with the very difficult cases. And this is even different from an independent medical examiner, which is someone that doesn't work directly for a disability insurance company, but that's another side gig that's clinical, but is, there's no patient, physician relationship. So liability is basically nil, but I had a guest who was disabled as a physician in her work as an, obstetrician.
Speaker 1 And she ended up having to quit and she found out that there are some issues with her disability insurance. She became very concerned. She had a lot of people asking her questions about disability insurance, and she ended up mentoring them and coaching them. And so now she is a, disability insurance, independent broker. So he has, she has company.
Speaker 1 She has a partner who's not a physician and she sells disability insurance to residents, fellows, and physicians who are out of training. Okay. Now, pharma, pharma is vast and from a financial standpoint, not the same as hospital and health systems. If you look, about a quarter of all the healthcare dollars in the country are spent on hospitals and health systems. I think farmers closer to 10, 12, maybe 15%, but they have so many different jobs that it's, it's incredible.
Speaker 1 And some of the jobs in pharma are for those that don't even have residency training or even have a license. They just have the MD or d o or MBBS or the equivalent. So I have a slide here. I try to break it down because there's so many areas, But just briefly, you have the clinical development where the research studies are are crafted and prepared and and carried out phase 1, 2, and 3. You could be out in practice.
Speaker 1 And if you're a good clinician, you can get a job in that area. It's not as easy as if you came out of academia. But it is possible. The regulatory side, not that many physicians there. There are some medical affairs is a huge area.
Speaker 1 I was told by someone in a very large, company that they have just from the standpoint of the title, they had assistant medical directors, associate medical directors, medical directors, senior medical director, executive medical director, senior VP, VP, CMO, all those levels, all doing something slightly different in all of them in the medical affairs division, which is really responsible for getting the drugs out to the public. The medical affairs is the 1 and the clinical development. I believe that interface with the CROs, which is a third party that does some of the pharma's work. CROs hire, physicians. Typically they may hire MSLs medical science liaisons.
Speaker 1 If the, and I'll tell you what that is in a moment. If the, if the company doesn't directly, I think sometimes it's the, medical monitors work through them. And then those are 2 of the jobs where you don't even have to be licensed. I mean, not that they won't hire you if you are licensed for a medical monitor or MSL job, but there are some openings for those without the license. And then safety and pharmacovigilance, I think that kinda straddles the clinical development and the medical affairs because they, track and monitor and report and analyze adverse reactions.
Speaker 1 I think both in the phase 3 and maybe earlier, as well as once something has been released. So I don't wanna belabor that, but I do wanna say there are lots of opportunities in the pharma arena. I carve out the medical monitor and the medical science liaison because these are seen somewhat as more of an entry level. The requirements are a little less. I've talked to many, many medical science liaisons.
Speaker 1 They're the ones that interface between medical affairs and the physicians out in the field, the influencers, the key opinion leaders. And, they do have to travel because they're interfacing and they're bringing information back. So from what I understand, they will travel maybe 2 up to 3 days a week. They have a day a week where they're kind of organizing their paperwork and doing work at home. And then the other day, they're usually on meetings with the home office to interface, but that's kind of the breakdown of it.
Speaker 1 So each of these jobs has different, requirements. And, but you know, for some people it's, it's a nice job and a nice way to get started, and they can then shift into other areas. I'm gonna talk about medical consultant or medical consulting. In my mind, there's 2 types. There's the freelance consultant, and then there's the, the very end of the spectrum on the other side, which is massive, international, consulting companies, management consulting companies, most of which have almost, you know, is equally large healthcare departments or divisions.
Speaker 1 So McKinsey's 1, you know, Accenture, Deloitte and Touche, BCG, the advisory board used to be 1. I think they're, they're not necessarily considered a consulting firm at this point. And there are others. So I was told by a McKinsey consultant experienced 1 and said that sometimes they prefer to hire physicians who have not had a residency, or been out clinically because they basically wanna take someone that has that science and medical knowledge and expertise, and then train them for what they're going to use them for in their company. On the other hand, there's some very, very experienced physicians who then get a job consulting.
Speaker 1 It can be a lot of travel, but you know, the travel, you have traveled time and then non travel time. On the other side, you know, as a hospital, CMO, you know, we often had consultants and sometimes they'd be a big company, you know, like Accenture or Huron. And other times, it was just a freelancer with maybe a staff of 2 or 3, and they came in. I can't tell you how many times we had people for utilization management to improve our process or for the CDI. So there's a lot of consulting you can do.
Speaker 1 You can consult to other physicians in their office if you have certain expertise. And so it's definitely an option, particularly if you don't wanna be employed. Expert witness is 1 of my favorite part time jobs. The pay is extremely good on an hourly basis. When you're an expert witness, you start by reviewing charts and you review a lot of charts.
Speaker 1 And eventually, if there's a deposition, you have to do a deposition. And then probably less than 1%, I think more or less, you might have to actually go to court for these cases. But most of the time they're settled and you don't end up going to court. But it's something that is a certain personality, you know, works best for, but you typically, depending on the specialty you're going to earn or you can charge 3 to 4 times, maybe 5 times or more the hourly rate that you actually, you know, the net that you would do in your practice. And so you could cut your practice down in half, add in 10 hours of expert witness work and have a better lifestyle and earn more money at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 And now we have coaches that teach people how to become expert witnesses and coaches that teach you how to get into pharma. It's kind of interesting. So we can't get into that today, but it's just amazing what's been happening over the last 10 years, 5 years, really professional speaker, more of a part time thing. I know of speakers that will, get 10 to $15,000 for a speech pandemic sort of slowed that down quite a bit. But, this is Lynette Charity.
Speaker 1 She She started by doing stand up comedy when she retired from anesthesia. And, and then she moved into professional speaking. She had, you know, 2 or 3 signature speeches, and she was paid a lot of money to give her her talks. If it's an important topic, if it's a popular topic and you can get in front of an audience at a 10,000 member or, you know, 1 of those big groups that meets, at a convention center. Yes.
Speaker 1 You can demand those kind of, levels of pay, but has to be an excellent presentation. I've talked to media personalities. I don't think I've had 1 on the podcast, but I've talked to them at conferences. And so this slide is here to represent that either of those 2 there on the right could be a physician. You might have a local radio or television show, you know, write articles for the paper, interview other people about different topics, or the physician could be on the left.
Speaker 1 He might be the expert in something, some maybe infectious disease, and the and the woman on the right interviewing him about COVID or something. So those are other part time things you can do, especially if it builds on the type of practice that lends itself to that. You know, especially specialties where people wanna get a little more, direct information. A lot of the people I've talked to over the years, have done something where they're kind of putting 2 or 3 things together. So you could still practice part time.
Speaker 1 Yeah. I had an, orthopedist who she just decided she needed to slow down, but she didn't want to retire. So she stopped doing surgery. So she does only outpatient assessments. And then on top of that, she teaches a course every year at the local university.
Speaker 1 So I think it's usually in January. So she, you know, she has a curriculum pretty much set up, so she does that every year. And then meanwhile, she writes, questions for, physician assistant prep course. So, you know, she's putting all these things together. I had another guest who had a little bit of a clinical practice.
Speaker 1 It was a very niche practice that she did 2 or 3 weeks out of the month. The other week, she worked, in a, rotating locums position in an underserved area. So between her and 3 others, they covered this area. It might have been a it might have been a, Native American reservation or something like that. And she had a great she loved it.
Speaker 1 She loved it. She loved the variety. She was also doing something with a pharma company part time evaluating patients or evaluating, I think plasmapheresis, materials or something. So people can get creative. Now I'm including telemedicine and then another topic that's really obviously clearly clinical for a couple of reasons.
Speaker 1 1 is it's oftentimes much more free and more freedom, more, variety, more flexibility. But it's also 1 of those things where if you're really in a big rush to cut back, you can supplement your income. You have to do it right. But there's a lot of flexibility. I have a friend, Tom Davis, who's very good at telemedicine.
Speaker 1 He writes about it all the time. He coaches and consults on it. And he basically has found 3 or 4, companies. He's a freelancer. He has his own LLC, and, they're very stable.
Speaker 1 And he works about 20 hours a week in the telemedicine and essentially makes what he made as a full time family physician, but he does it the right way. And he can do other things, like I said, consulting and so forth when he's not doing the telemedicine. Welcome Life Fear. This is written by Andrew Wilner. Who's been a guest on my podcast a couple of times.
Speaker 1 He's written this book. It's, it's actually the best book I've seen on trying to explain all the ins and outs of doing locums to do locums. It takes planning, you have to be licensed, you know, wherever you might be working. So there's a little bit of planning that goes into it, but a lot of the headaches of regular medicine are not in locums. You have to travel.
Speaker 1 Although I I had a friend who's a nephrologist who's doing locums at 3 or 4 different places, and then she slowly over time found 2 or 3 locum jobs in her own state. And she was working through a third party, and then I think eventually she just found her own locums in the state that she negotiated directly, made more money, and didn't have to work as much. So locums is good for a temporary or it could be a permanent thing. By the way, the, the guy that wrote this book actually lived as a medical writer for 10 years, not working clinically. And then he went back to it to, to, to working clinically, which he does not recommend you try to do, because it would probably be impossible to do it at this point.
Speaker 1 But, he did it. So it's pretty amazing. All right. We're gonna end up with this last slide. These are all some of the coaches that I know this is probably 1% of the physician coaches in the country right now.
Speaker 1 Back 5 or 10 years ago, there were maybe a handful of coaches that you could find. Philip Kennelly is 1. I think she's not coaching anymore. Bottom left there is Heather Forks. She goes back at least 10 years.
Speaker 1 Myisha care LeClaire Ward on the top left. Oh, Starla Fitch, a second on the top left there. But anyway, they're these are all coaches. If you know who the happy MD is, that's Dyke Drummond. He's on the top right there.
Speaker 1 So coaching there's wellness, coaching, fitness, coaching, health, coaching, business professional burnout coaching. I mean, you name it. There's at least 10 or 12 different areas that you can coach. And and coaching has all the benefits really of being a physician professional, you you know, get to work with people, help them through something and, you know, have a real positive outcome, get paid for it with almost none of the downsides. Okay.
Speaker 1 You're not on call. You have pretty much 0 liability. And there are a lot of physicians that are really just finding that once they've gone through coaching themselves, they love it. So that's another career to consider, and you can definitely do that part time. Alright.
Speaker 1 So we're coming to the end here. What do all of these careers have in common? Well, at least the ones I've talked about today, 1 of the things they all have in common is that they build on your education and experience. Okay. So I'm not talking about opening a hotdog stand or, you know, a flooring company or something, which you can do.
Speaker 1 But those are all jobs that I talked about where you have to be a physician to do those jobs, at least in the way that they're presented here. I mean, you can be a coach and not be a physician, but you can't really be a physician coach specializing in burnout, as well. If you're not a physician, there might be a few out there that try to do that. So you don't have to leave the education and experience behind for sure. Number 2, you, you have 70 or 80% of the skills you need for most of these jobs.
Speaker 1 The more, you know, intense the job or the bigger deviates from your normal activities, then the more additional skills you might want to stack, which you should be doing anyway. I mean, there's nothing wrong in learning about, you know, social media and search engine optimization for different jobs or becoming an entrepreneur or finance or healthcare finance, how to manage, how to lead. I mean, those are useful skills in any situation, but particularly, you know, to build onto your medical background. It works out very, very well. And really the, the problem is narrowing the career choice down.
Speaker 1 I have many people have contacted me and they said, you know what, I'm getting out. There's no question I'm, I'm not meant to be practicing medicine and taking care of patients anymore for whatever reason. But it's like, oh, I don't know where to start. Well, we have a lot of, you know, things like this that I'm doing today and other ways that you can get information. Like I said, the Facebook group has 16,000 physicians working and talking with each other.
Speaker 1 Oddly enough, about 10,000, pretty active in the group. And, that's a nonclinical physician nonclinical career hunters Facebook group. And it's not my group. I'm going to moderator for it. It was started by Laura McCain.
Speaker 1 Who's another person that does coaching and mentoring. So if you want to listen to my podcast, number 1, if you've never listened to a podcast, you need to learn about listening to a podcast, but you should do that when you're when you're exercising or in the car. That's basically the only time I do it. So I don't sit in a chair at home, listen to podcasts, but I have a podcast. I'm coming close to 200 episodes right now.
Speaker 1 And Hey, if you send me a request for something that's related to this topic, I'm pretty much going to find a guest to talk about it, or I'll talk about it myself. My website is there, nonclinicalphysicians.com. The reason I put the slash 70 jobs is if you go to that URL, and click on that, you'll be brought to a spot where you can give me your email address and I will send you a 2 or 3 page list that has 70 rather distinct. You know, some of them overlap a little bit, but 70 nonclinical non traditional jobs. And for most of them, I have a resource that you can access to kind of get started.
Speaker 1 And you can just email me at [email protected]. If you ever wanna ask me a question, I answer all of my emails. I usually get a 1 or 2 sentence question. I usually respond with about a 2 page answer. So now that you've learned all this and you've heard what's out there, and you're gonna stay in wonderland and see how deep the rabbit hole goes, what's your next step?
Speaker 1 Well, I think our next step is to have some q and a. So I think I am going to stop sharing at this point. Omar, are you still with us?
Speaker 0 I'm still here. Can you see me? Can you hear me?
Speaker 1 Yes. I can.
Speaker 0 Fantastic. Fantastic presentation, doctor Yurigan. We got, different questions that come in. So for some people felt some people felt more comfortable, messaging and email me, but that's fine too. So let's start with, first question here.
Speaker 0 Oh, now they're pouring in. So, yep, everybody found the chat.
Speaker 1 They were waiting. Yeah.
Speaker 0 Yeah. So first question actually from, from Paul and his question is regarding telemedicine. You said good if you do it the right way. What do you mean?
Speaker 1 Okay. So here's what's happened in telemedicine from what I know. I've never done telemedicine, but I've had numerous conversations. I've interviewed Tom Davis on my podcast. So number 1, there are a lot of people getting into the telemedicine space and basically their technology companies trying to build a telemedicine platform.
Speaker 1 They don't necessarily know medicine. They don't necessarily know patients. And so a lot of them have come and gone. If you signed up with 1 of them and start seeing patients and they went under, you basically worked for free for part of the time. So you have to be careful.
Speaker 1 You need to have a very well established company. You need to talk to people, make sure it has a reputation. That's good. They're consistent. And then see how they pay.
Speaker 1 The other way you need to, like, you're going to be licensed in multiple States, multiple time zones. You're going to optimize that. You can make significantly more money if you go on and, and do the telemedicine during off hours. And we're talking about the type of telemedicine where you're backing up some primary care group or some specialty group in your specialty. And you're taking that first line of calls after the nurses taken the call.
Speaker 1 It's a totally different picture if you're actually, you know, doing, using it for surgical follow-up, or psychiatry or dermatology. But there, you just get out there. If you're interested in telemedicine, you read about it, go on the blogs. And, if worst comes to worst, you could always reach out to Tom Davis Consulting. Man, I'm not getting paid to plug him, but it does sometimes help to talk to someone.
Speaker 1 And I think he would, even if you just linked up on LinkedIn, he'd answer your questions. But there's you can make mistakes and you can get burned is what I'm saying. And so if you do it right though, and the other thing you have to know clinically is how to get the answer of what's going on and come to a diagnosis quickly and get them moving quickly to the next step or send them to the ER. You can't spend a half an hour on a, on a telemedicine call and, you know, drag it out. It has to be very efficient.
Speaker 1 Otherwise, you can't you can't make a good living. So that's that's part of it.
Speaker 2 Fantastic. Now next question I'll answer for you. So Ellen, said, sorry. I missed the first part. Will there be a recorded session?
Speaker 2 Yes, Alan. There is going to be a recorded session. And, you know, for for everyone, I decided, you know, we'll we'll also have the, offer available from Gentium, which is the free demo and revenue cycle assessment for private practice. So that'll go out in email. Next 1.
Speaker 2 So Joe Jolan Jolan, I hope I pronounced that correctly, asked, what is the best way to start to find jobs in pharma?
Speaker 1 And so That's an
Speaker 2 interesting question. Yeah. I've I've I've I've, I guess, my some thoughts on that just because that's the medtech pharma world is where I just came from. But what do you what do you think, doctor Eureka? What what have you found to be most of the best place to start?
Speaker 1 There's, I'm trying to think, first of all, there are textbooks out written by people about nonclinical jobs. They don't focus on pharma, but there's 50 nonclinical careers written by Sylvie Stacy who was put out by the American Association for physician leadership. Like last year, It's very up to date, has a whole section on pharma jobs. You can start to look at that. There is, you know, if you want to get into the MSL, there's a whole lot of resources for the medical science liaison.
Speaker 1 There's a woman who puts out something called, well, you have the MSL society. And, and then there's the MSL Institute knows that's just a, like a private website, but it has tons of articles and books. That's more for the MSL. The other book, Heidi Moed, M O a D a D Mo, M O a w a D Moed. She wrote a book about 7 years ago about nonclinical careers.
Speaker 1 There's a whole section in there on pharma. And then if you look in Facebook, from what I understand, and I'm not a member, there are several, Facebook groups devoted strictly to physicians working in pharma, and some of them are even niched down further than that. So that's a good start. That would be, I mean, there actually are. There's a pharmaco.
Speaker 1 There's 1 or 2 pharmacoaches out there. Oh, and there's a guy by the name of Paul Hercock. He's in the NHS and, in the UK. He wrote a book about getting into pharma, but he's, you know, from the European side. So that's a start.
Speaker 0 Yeah. That I I I think that's very, very helpful because a lot
Speaker 2 of times it's hard to find those guides. The other thing, and shameless plug here, if you head over to, nonclinicalphysicians.com, doctor Eureka's website, if it hasn't gone up when it does go up, the interview that he and I did, I think, will be helpful for answering that question. 1 of my things I recommend, to all physicians to do is, you know, get on it's very overwhelming with all social media. I would start 1st on LinkedIn, and what I would do is, you know, put your profile on there and try a few times a week. Just open the LinkedIn, do a post, share an article, share something, maybe a piece of, clinical work that you did, you know, and engage.
Speaker 2 And then every day, just add people from the pharma industry, and someone's going to put 2 and 2 together and say, you know what? This physician, doctor Janet, she is a nephrologist, and she's also in critical care. She'd be really good to talk to about our product. You know, because I think the other thing that people think about when they think about doing consultancy work, they think about these huge companies, Medtronic, Gen. J, but there's a lot of start ups that would love to have a physician as a clinical adviser, as a consultant, and they'll pay you in shares and or, cash.
Speaker 2 Right? So I think the big thing is just get online and, again, shameless plug here. I would follow what doctor Eureka does. You don't have to start a podcast and blog, but if you do similar things to what he does, you will be discovered, and then that way you work a system of opportunities coming to you versus if you try and do it on your own just searching, right, it becomes really hard. So I think between the books that doctor Eureka recommended and and just being active, I I think that's a best best start.
Speaker 2 What do you think doctor Eureka?
Speaker 1 Oh, I would agree. And the thing I wanna really emphasize, I mean, there's serve certain things in here that all kinda come together. LinkedIn, your resume, networking mentors. You can find mentors on LinkedIn. You can network on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 When you when you're on LinkedIn, you know, I I understand people not wanting to get on Twitter or even Facebook, but LinkedIn is a professional, you know, social media site. You need to have a professional picture, a nice summary of what you do, what you'd like to do. The whole thing should be completely filled out. LinkedIn walks you through that process. And then I only really, when people want to, connect with me, I only connect with physicians, essentially 99.9%.
Speaker 1 Percent. You could be extremely selective. And if you just connected with physicians and others, maybe that are in pharma, they don't have to be all physicians, but nurses and pharmacists pharmacists and others that and you just you'll learn in just getting those connections.
Speaker 2 I completely agree with that. Completely agree. So next question, this is from an isn't it not isn't I can tell why this is an anonymous question. The question is, do you need to carry professional liability insurance for nonclinical side work that is not covered under Med Mal?
Speaker 1 So you don't need to have malpractice or liability insurance when you're do, when you do not have a physician patient relationship. Now, there are some of these jobs where it's a little iffy. So, I mean, if you're working in pharma, you wouldn't, if you're working as a strictly as a CMO and have no longer have a license or you're not using your license, you wouldn't need liability insurance. Now, what if you're, a medical, like online consultant teaching about functional medicine And, you know, let's say you're you're in New York and you're basically most of your clients are in California. I mean, there's almost no risk of liability there, but you, some of these things, as they get a little fuzzy, you should consult an attorney is the bottom line.
Speaker 1 But if you're not practicing, if you're not giving medical advice, if you put disclaimers, these attorneys will tell you you, you're pretty much don't have to worry about the liability, but you have to just be a little careful how you put that out there.
Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's always it's always tough when I think But I would be sued. Right?
Speaker 0 Yeah. Anybody can be sued. That's true.
Speaker 2 But, you know, I think, you know, you shouldn't let that stop you from from having to find these different pathways and explore them. And I think the best way to doctor Eureka's point is just to, you know, be armed with information. Alright. Next question. I'm, this person was not anonymous, but just based on the question, I'm going to keep you anonymous.
Speaker 2 So the so the question is and this this is 1 of those questions that they don't teach you in residency. So this person's asked, my contract prohibits me from doing any clinical medicine outside the company. Is this standard for hospital contracts? How do I get around this?
Speaker 1 Well okay. So I did a lot of contracting when I was the CMO at my hospital. I probably either started or redid at least 300 contracts. So these things show up in different contracts to greater or lesser extents. You know, you've got like intellectual property, you know, concerns you've, you know, if you create something while you're working at work, it's going to be theirs, you know, or at least in part.
Speaker 1 They've got issues with restrictive covenants. Like, they don't want you doing nonclinical things, you know, during your off hours because you need to represent the best interest of the of the company of the, of the hospital. What have you. So the secret there is those particular provisions vary quite a bit. Some hospitals don't even put anything in there about that.
Speaker 1 Some say you can moonlight as long as you have permission. Some say that anything you create, you write a book or do something while you're not working. It's yours. You just have to have your attorney. That's why we all have attorneys when we get a contract with a with a medical employer, a hospital, or even a large group or a small group.
Speaker 1 Because things we take for granted, we don't think you're ever gonna apply. Lo and behold, 5 years in, Now you want to open something up. You want to do some kind of a med spa part time or, or even just Moonlight doing something clinical or nonclinical, and then that contract may keep you from doing it. So once you're in it, there's only a couple of ways to get out of it. 1 is to look at the provision for resigning and put in your notice and tell them you don't really intend to resign, but you're resigning because you need to renegotiate your contract or you just live with it.
Speaker 1 You don't wanna just do it even though it's against your contract because although they might not notice it's you can get you just end up spending a lot of money if they sue you for that and it's not worth it. So, I always say it's best to be honest with your employer and say, look, this is what I wanna do. I don't think it really interferes with my work here, and I'm doing it on off hours. And I have so many, you know, I don't I'm in a job or I do shift work anyway. So it's not like I'm on call.
Speaker 1 It's easier to just have that conversation and get a written permission to, to bypass the contract.
Speaker 0 So doctor Yrica, I have an interesting question. You know, for a lot of physicians, sort of the obvious, you know, side hustle or or or or income stream outside of their job is doing telemedicine. Because it just makes sense. Right? Like, oh, like, I can just pick up some hours whenever I want, and it's pretty much doing what I'm doing now except at scale I'm doing digitally.
Speaker 0 Right. What's kind of the non obvious path of all the ones that you've just, you know, shared that is equally as, let's say, low friction and easy to get into, like, something like something that's telemedicine that just makes sense. But it's but something that physicians don't usually often think about.
Speaker 1 Well, I guess it's all a matter of what do you consider, like, low friction because pretty much anything you do, it takes some planning, obviously. I think the easiest thing, for example, like being a medical writer that you can do anytime you like, it takes a while to build up a relationship. But once you have 2 or 3 publishers and editors that work with you, and if you like to write, let's say CME or other things, then you could get into that on the side. It wouldn't you wouldn't make a ton of money, but it would not interfere at all with your current position because you could just do it on the weekends or night whenever you'd like. Being an expert witness is a hard, is, is probably the best financially.
Speaker 1 It takes a while to build up, but, you know, I have heard, I've talked to guests who really had no intention of becoming a medical expert. They got into it because the attorneys were calling them. They needed a nephrologist. They needed a an OB to talk on this or a perinatologist. So as long as, again, it's not contrary to your contract.
Speaker 1 I mean, sometimes the contract say you can't do other clinical things, but they don't even talk about the nonclinical. So as long as it's not interfering with your schedule, the medical expert would be the thing I would do, because as long as you know the standard of care and you pick the right cases, it's a chart review is most of it, and you can do it during off hours. And if you have to do a deposition, fine. You take a vacation day if you have to do the deposition.
Speaker 2 Got it. Got it. Yeah. And that's actually an an a very interesting 1. And, again, I think so much you know, when I talk to people whether it's physicians or not, so much of finding an income stream or or a different career just has to do with distribution of the product that is you.
Speaker 2 And I really just think that getting on LinkedIn I know some people are very private about who they wanna connect with. But right now, it's the common thing you just connect with people you don't even know. I would consider connecting with anyone who you think would give you that new income stream, whether it's pharma, you know, lawyers in the field, etcetera, And you you'll be really surprised. You know? And doctor Ricky, just you're you're pretty active on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 Have you experienced sort of more opportunities kinda come your way without you even thinking about them?
Speaker 1 Well, yeah, because people are just reaching out to me because I I have posted in the past quite a bit. Now I just post my podcast episodes, but people comment on those and then people see them and then ask to connect. And then sometimes it's salesy, you know, they want to sell me something or do some consulting or coaching. But a lot of times it's somebody that that's actually where I get a lot of my guests for my podcasts. I'd use LinkedIn all the time to find my guests, or they reach out to me and I go, you know, you'd be a good guest.
Speaker 1 So let's do it. So, yeah. So it's it's very helpful. And I 1 of my friends, the my 3rd podcast, I first guest, his name was, Cesar Limhoko. He's a he's a he's a CDI specialist consultant.
Speaker 1 You know, I was talking about that. And I looked at his site 1 day, I looked, you got like 40,000 connections. I was like, how on earth did you do that? But he puts something out like practically every other day. And he's an expert in his field.
Speaker 1 I mean, the he's the first 1 now anybody goes to when they need someone that that's to consult on CDI. So, I mean, LinkedIn can be very useful if you do it right.
Speaker 2 No. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, couple couple more questions. And, again, we're getting close to the hour, and doctor Yureka, we appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 So I'm gonna do alright. So it looks like there's 3. Alright. Let's see if we can, blaze through this because, again, it's late on Okay. It's late on your side.
Speaker 2 Alright. So, first 1, if interested in informatics, best, is it better to take time off and do a master's or do in conjunction with clinical work? That's a tough 1.
Speaker 1 Well, people ask me about getting an MBA or an MHA or an is another medical management degree. And and the same would apply to a master's in informatics or 1 of the sub specialties in computer science. To me, I would say that if I could have my eye on a job or maybe get the job first Or kind of consecutive, no, there was not complete the master's degree and not complete even the certification. Cause there are lots of certifications. I think you can get in, in fields related to informatics that don't require like a commitment of a full year or more.
Speaker 1 But the benefit of getting into the job, like as a medical director, let's say for informatics, you don't have to have the degree to get that job. You have to have an interest in some expertise, but then the company sometimes will pay for your degree and, you know, you get the degree to give you a bump in pay. So I would try to do it that way. Same as with the MBA. I, I don't tell people when they have an MBA or thinking of an MBA to just get that, like, it's gonna solve their problems to get a job.
Speaker 1 No. They should have an idea what they want and then decide how and when to fit the MBA in strategically.
Speaker 0 Got it. Got it. That makes that makes that makes a lot of sense, actually. Okay. Couple more.
Speaker 0 So, what are the best so this is a interesting so what's the best career path for leveraging ourselves and not trading time for money? Great question.
Speaker 1 Well, I might have to throw this back to you and your colleagues. I mean, in general, the best is to start a business. I mean, it can flop, but if you start a business and it's successful, it's the biggest return on your investment pretty much, but depending on what the businesses, the, the medical, anything. Okay. Let me go here.
Speaker 1 A CMO in the hospital setting minimum makes 300 to 400,000 a year. I've seen CMOs make 5, 6, 800,000, you know, a C a CEO of a hospital that makes over $1,000,000 with benefits and everything. So the hospital and health system is 1 that's, if you're looking at dollars, that's 1 that you'll, you'll match, you know, a surgical salary, you know, who's working 80 hours a week. Sometimes, pharma has some really good high paying jobs and, in terms of, you know, like an ROI and let's see, and examine a time basis, medical experts, the other big 1 medical writing, no MSL, the, the entry level jobs. No, but those 3, I think, are the big fields.
Speaker 2 Got it. Got it. Fantastic. Alright. Last question.
Speaker 2 Yep. Last question. You need 1 more?
Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Do it.
Speaker 0 I kinda put you on the spot. You can't. Yeah. So alright. So last last question.
Speaker 0 So the question is, how do I become an expert witness? What's the best way to get into this field? I once reached out to a company on LinkedIn. It took several emails for the company's representative to reply. And when she replied, she stated the attorneys wanted someone with experience.
Speaker 0 This was discouraging.
Speaker 1 Well, the, depending on what they need, you know, they're gonna require certain things, you know, in terms of your specialty and so forth. There are places that teach people we're talking about expert witness, right? Yes. So number 1, there's a course put on by Gretchen Green. How to become it's basically it's expert witness school of some sort.
Speaker 1 So that's an online course. It's like $3,000 There's a company called SEEK, s e a k. They put out an annual nonclinical careers meeting, but they also sell DVDs and courses specifically geared to becoming an expert witness, and they and they publish an expert witness directory. So once you're feel confident, you can put yourself in that directory. That's not the only directory.
Speaker 1 There's multiple directories. And then, there is a company. Oh, I might have to give you the company name later, Omar. I did an interview. Okay.
Speaker 1 If you're gonna have to go to my podcast and go back about just about 3 or 4 episodes with a physician who retired and then became the CMO for a recruiting firm. And 1 branch of the recruit recruiting firm, I think it's called MD experts or something, but they hire physician expert witnesses and match them up with jobs. And they will give you a lot of free coaching and education as part of that. So if you can find that, look up med expert witness under the podcast and the website, and you'll come to that more recent 1 and he'll explain how to do that.
Speaker 2 Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, doctor Urika, thank you so much for being, you know, willing to give your time and and do this fantastic presentation. For all the attendees, thank you for attending. Again, this recording, will be going out to everybody in a couple of days along with the offer.
Speaker 2 Again, I left that link in the chat, so be sure to click it. And, again, if you're in a private practice, take the assessment. It's free, and you definitely learn a lot about your revenue. And then in the meantime, we'll also provide links to doctor Urieka's, podcast and blog. And, again, the recording will be going out in a few days to everyone.
Speaker 1 So May I say something before we go? Oh, please. Yeah. You know, when you're in practice, 1 of the reasons some people leave practice is they just can't make enough money. They can't fight all the headaches and the hassles.
Speaker 1 And I mean, I've never used Gentems prod product, but I'll tell you, billing is a big deal. And if you can vet Gentum and they can come in and improve your billing and increase your collections and take that off your and do it for less, you know, I was paying typically 7, 8%, and I still had a lousy job, you know, done by my billers in the past. So, it's definitely worth checking out. And if you can stay in practice and be happy and take home a nice salary, then why not check it out?
Speaker 2 Oh, I love it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, doctor Urieger.
Speaker 1 You're welcome. Maybe it's a challenge. So
Speaker 2 It really is. It really is. Well well, that said, thank you all. Have a wonderful night, and we'll be doing another, webinar soon. So be, be on the lookout for that.
Speaker 2 Take care, everyone.
Speaker 1 Bye bye.