Summary How To Talk Your Uncle Out of QAnon | Offline with Jon Favreau - YouTube (Youtube) youtu.be
7,683 words - YouTube video - View YouTube video
n/a If people are so alienate from these systems of power, they don't know how the sausage is made, and sometimes it's worth lifting the hood and being like, the sausage making is terribly dysfunctional and messy. And hopefully, that means they could never pull
Beth Goldberg off this conspiracy theory that you're so worried about.
John Favreau I'm John Favreau. Welcome To. My guest today is Beth Goldberg. Head of Research and development at Jigsaw, which has been called. The Internet's Justice League.
John Favreau Beth is a behavioral researcher who leads R and D at Jigsaw. A project at Google that helps develop solutions to fight the Internet's biggest problems. Hate, harassment, misinformation. Around Thanksgiving last year, Beth wrote a piece about how we can help relatives leave behind Qa and on and other conspiracies. She's also done a lot of research into how we can in ourselves against conspiracy theories in the first place.
John Favreau She taught me why people fall down these rabbit holes. Why it's hard but not impossible to pull someone out and how we can show compassion and empathy at the Thanksgiving table this week. Here's Beth Goldberg. Beth Goldberg, welcome to offline.
Beth Goldberg Thanks so much, Shank. Glad be here.
John Favreau So ever since 20 16, I feel like it it seems like 1 thanksgiving tradition is talking about how we talk to relatives who have different political views. Or believe in conspiracy theories or or generally just post wacky shit on the Internet. And I wanted to talk to you because you've actually done quite a bit of behavioral research into how we might approach those conversations in a way that not only keeps the piece at the dinner table, but potentially persuade family members to see the world a bit differently. So I'd love to start with an excellent piece you wrote last year around Thanksgiving on how to talk to loved ones who've become. Qa on believers.
John Favreau First off, is it crazy to even wanna have these conversations?
Beth Goldberg No. I think we need to. You had a great conversation a month or so ago with a non jarvis where you talked about that... You know, we need to be in the ring. We need to try to be persuade.
Beth Goldberg And there is no 1 who is quote irr redeem. Right? Everyone is, has that ability to change their mind at some point? We just have to treat them like human beings still even when they say really vile upsetting things. So really the the the onus is on us to, like, keep coming back to that table.
John Favreau So I wanna focus on how people get out of the conspiracy rabbit hole. But first, I'd love to know from your research. Like what are some of the main reasons people are drawn to conspiracies. Are there certain? Social or psychological factors that make certain people more susceptible?
Beth Goldberg Yeah. When I started this work, I had all sorts of assumptions, like, I think a lot of us do that, oh, conspiracy believers are maybe not as smart or maybe they come from a certain that’s type of background. No, they're all... A you know, tin foil hat wearing people in rural areas or, you know, some some crazy stereotypes. Yeah.
Beth Goldberg I have honestly been blown away, over and by how diverse and how quote, like, normal prevalence. Everywhere. Conspiracy believers are that’s they... They're just looking for a community. But in in the Us, and we found that over no again in these polls, over 50 percent of Americans believe at least 1 conspiracy at any point in time.
Beth Goldberg And something like 30 percent of Americans endorse these claims that, like, there's a secret Cabal running things that we're not informed about. Right? So there's there's this constant sort of underlying home of conspiracy belief everywhere. So it's so it's not really unusual. And when people are drawn to it, they're they're honestly looking for people who are like minded, aren't gonna judge them.
Beth Goldberg And who are maybe a little bit confused by some of the really complex happenings in the world, like, I don't know a global pandemic and they're looking for these sort of easy answers and they're looking for people who to share their grievances and and to sort of like comm misery together, honestly, We we all do it. But some for some folks, they're really finding that comfort in these communities that are giving them those easy, comfort food answers.
John Favreau Obviously, people have believed in conspiracies since the dawn of time. And I've sort of seen like, mixed research on whether there's like a greater proportion of people who believe in conspiracies these days. I'm always looking for sort of the larger you know, societal factors that are contributing to this. And, of course, you know, because this is a show about all the ways the internet is breaking our brains I wonder if there's evidence that the Internet and social media have led more people to embrace conspiracy theories.
Beth Goldberg You know, I've heard this before that we're in some golden age of conspiracy belief. And I wish we had some really neat surveys. I 1 had done, like, a hundred years ago, so we could finally sorted out, have it before and after. Yeah. That data doesn't exist, but I don't actually think we're seeing more conspiracy theories now.
Beth Goldberg Than before. From the little bits of data that we do have. We know that conspiracy belief was super duper high at various points in the past. So I'll I'll give you 1 example where there is data that Jfk is assassination.
John Favreau Mh.
Beth Goldberg After he was assassinated, some insanely high over 50 percent of American, you know, number. Believe that it was a conspiracy theory. And and then it that it wasn't really an assassination that we now have lots of evidence about. So I think, you know, it's certainly the number of Americans who believe or number of people on and if you believe in conspiracy theories likely ebb and flows. With these really big complex events that we can't fully wrap our heads around.
Beth Goldberg But it's it's always been a little bit higher than we think But what's making us think it's a golden age now is the Internet. Internet is amplifying the fringe. Right? The fringe has never been more accessible. If you think about the pre Internet days, how did people learn about conspiracy theories?
Beth Goldberg It was like, well, maybe they picked up a weird book at the library. Or maybe their friend introduced them to some, like, super niche movie that, like, their parents didn't want them to have and they they snuck it in. Right? Like, but it was Yeah. A little bit at Taboo and it was much harder to access.
Beth Goldberg And so now we have this amplification and that’s accessibility of snuck more fringe ideas than than ever before. And so that makes it feel like oh in this this moment where there's more of it.
John Favreau You mentioned the pandemic. I've always wondered if, you know, times in history where there's more social disorder, loneliness, alien, whether it's caused by economic or political factors, that sort of leads people to a, like you said, want to find a community and b, sort of make sense of an increasingly disordered world.
Beth Goldberg You're absolutely right. I I really love the word. Alien that you used. And I'll step back. Jigsaw has my my research team at Jigsaw has done research now, with over a hundred conspiracy theorist where we really sit down with them at their kitchen tables.
Beth Goldberg We meet them at their place of work and we we do these really deep get to know you style interviews and over and over again, you know, from meeting with flat earth thirst in Idaho to, you know, people who believe in a greater replacement of white folks and Tennessee and elsewhere, you know, we're hearing these patterns no matter what they believed of first off isolation. They were feeling separated just from friends and family. Right? These were folks who didn't have strong social networks. Alien nation from power, they didn't necessarily understand how decisions were made.
Beth Goldberg They didn't know why, you know, the tax rate change, why they had to wear masks, And so there is this sense that they weren't part of that decision making process, you know, who who was up there in Washington making those decisions. And and even more local decisions. Or or big pharma, right? They didn't understand like, how they made this particular vaccine. Right?
Beth Goldberg How do they get done so fast. Right? They're alienate from that whole system of power. And then and then lastly, that breeds mistrust. And so you have these really popular narratives now around mistrust, big institutions.
Beth Goldberg Mh Particularly those that you feel alienate
John Favreau from. I saw that former believers have called. Believing in conspiracy theories addictive? Why why is that? And how much does addictions sort of play into a lot of these people's sort of reason for embracing conspiracy theories.
Beth Goldberg Yeah. And I first wanna to say, we we wrote about addiction in that slate piece. And and I only use that terminology because actually a number of the conspiracy believers that I met with used that term themselves, to describe their own relationship with crc or misinformation content online. I was really blown away by that. And and and it does take on sort of negative connotation in Part because people feel out of control.
Beth Goldberg And so these these conspiracies are sort of a bit of a on that need for control and for answers that they have? And so, you know, why is it so addictive for some folks it it's honestly, it starts with social ties. Right? If they're... If you're feeling isolated and alienate.
Beth Goldberg And then you suddenly have this whole group of people online who... Are sharing this idea, and then you're part of that community when you share that idea. And when you start to like each other other's content, and you start to share each other's content, suddenly you have human connection that you've actually really been craving. And so community is is is the main thing. And the more that you build that online conspiracy community, the more you become alienate from the rest of your previous life community.
Beth Goldberg Right The more you know, your your family member stopped talking to you over thanksgiving dinner or, you know, your your coworkers start to think you're your a wack. And so there's that that segregation that happens, where where people really start to become reliant on that conspiracy community. It's also addictive because it's it's a rush you know, it's a rush to have to be in on the secret.
John Favreau It's so funny though that this like biological need for human connection. That almost every human being chairs. Oftentimes we think about it as, like, oh it can lead to all kinds of positive outcomes. But in this sense, It also can lead to finding people, finding a community that can be quite destructive.
Beth Goldberg Absolutely. You know, these these communities can really fan the flames of a sense of injustice or a sense that you you've been wrong. For some sort of whatever the crisis is, you know, you lost your job because of pandemic because you thought you know, the lockdown were too strict. That was a major moment for a lot of people to turn to conspiracy theories in these conspiracy communities because other people shared that grievance. Other people had just been laid off from from their their piece of employment as well.
Beth Goldberg And so you you get this victim complex and that can really fuel a lot of dangerous things in the name of self defense. Right? I mean, a lot of people that showed up on January 6, they thought they were legitimately defending their way of life. That was that was coming from this sort of moral crusade of, like, I'm doing the right thing. Right?
Beth Goldberg It's conspiracy theories that help flip it, they help flip reality on its head, and they help you see yourself as as victim as part of this community of victor.
John Favreau The crooked store just launched a bunch of new merchants inspired by your favorite Crooked media podcast reminding you to unplug reconnect and get festive. Some of the new items include a No save America mug. Nice. Yeah. That's right.
John Favreau You listen applied Save America. You've volunteered through the Favreau save America, but maybe what was needed all along to save America? No. It. There's also a log off ornament a.
John Favreau It's great. I love that’s. Should have this at home right now. I buy. Inspired by offline.
John Favreau Mh. This ornament shows a sn doodle Internet’s to a burning log, which also has a burning smartphone on it. A true classic Christmas scene This only screen insight is being burnt to a crisp. We already have this on our tree because our tree already been decorated. Yeah.
John Favreau Okay. Well, we'll talk. We'll talk about this. Treason greetings crew neck. It's really good.
John Favreau Here's the season from some trees. Straight from the top secret documents at Mar lag to the ski slopes of this fantasy World holiday design. Every order from the Crooked will support vote safe America's every last vote fund. To make sure we help grassroots organizations get out the vote. Head crooked dot com slash store, total to check out the new arrivals now.
John Favreau Offline is brought to you by, Sec. I think we can agree that we have enough going on with our day to day jobs without having to add financial planner to our resume. Absolutely. If you're a startup employee with stock options, you may be wondering what to do with them and how to maximize their value to in the rapidly changing world of startups, Sec helps answer questions like. What happens to your equity if your company gets acquired or is about to go public.
John Favreau Should you exercise your stock options and if so when, how should you pay for stock options and how can you minimize your tax bill? Sec financial advisor specialize? Aligning your stock options with your financial goals and are here to help protect and grow your money over time plus Sec leading equity platform and has already helped thousands of startup employees plan around their stock options. Offline listeners can get a free stock option planning consultation in a 400 dollar discount on financial advisory services by going to WWW dot sec dot com slash offline. So visit sec today to make sure you're making the most of your equity and stock options That's WWW dot SECFI dot com slash offline.
John Favreau Good news podcast fans. You can get America's number 1 late night show, the late night show with Stephen Colbert as a podcast, the Late show pod with Stephen Colbert. That's right. You'll get everything you love about the late show from Steven's Monologue to sci Interviews with news makers and celebrities delivered straight to your ears. You'll hear from guests like Anderson Cooper Kerry Washington and Secretary of Transportation Pete Butt.
John Favreau You'll even and discover some podcast exclusive moments you won't see on Tv like extended interviews, throwback colbert classics, and Steven even takes a few audience questions. Listen to the late show pod with Stephen Colbert 7 days a week available wherever you get your. So you spoke with dozens of q former, people who believed in or members of the Q movement. What did you learn about how people leave qa on and why they stop believing it.
Beth Goldberg Yeah. I... We spoke with dozens of q former and even before that, we've met with folks who were Covid conspiracy believers. And just recently, we've done some more work with some election desires. So really gone gone as broad as possible to understand people's relationships with conspiracy theories in the Us and beyond.
Beth Goldberg And I'll I'll first say, you know, this wasn't a homogeneous group of people by any means. You know, They they came from all different age groups. I met some some older folks who had been Obama supporters, you know, this old woman in New Jersey. It was a Latino woman and she was telling y'all all about how she worked on the Obama campaign. Then the next breath was telling you that he's part of the illuminati Right So
John Favreau my god.
Beth Goldberg Just really, you know, sub some of those stereotypes. And but they fell into sort of 2 rough buckets of the types of belief that they had and that impacted how they left. So the the 2 buckets, you can think about it with that’s sports metaphor of, like, phonetic and followers. Right? You've got those people were the die fans.
Beth Goldberg They're gonna be out there when it's 3 degrees out, They're gonna be screaming at the top their lungs of face pain. Right? The fan. And then you got the followers that are like, yeah I'll check the score on my phone after the game. Fans and, like, they they they wanna follow along.
Beth Goldberg They wanna, like, be part of the crew, but they really only show up for the Super Bowl.
John Favreau Got it.
Beth Goldberg Yeah. Suit. So we met with these guys. And and the fan additives are the ones who, like, would be self described addicted to the conspiracy belief. They're spending like, 8 hours a day online, sharing the stuff rep repo the stuff.
Beth Goldberg For them getting out looked like breaking an addiction. Right? They had to actually have a moment of self real realization that what they were doing wasn't healthy for them. It wasn't healthy for those around them. And for a lot of them, it was being confronted by a loved 1.
Beth Goldberg And you know, there's a story of a woman we met with in California. She had been a major bernie supporter, had fallen down this sort of q on rabbit hole and her husband actually had to confront her, you know, gently, but say, hey, this is making you unhappy. And it's... Taking away time that you could be spending in me. You're spending 8 hours a day on online, Like, I don't even get to spend time with you anymore.
Beth Goldberg This is how this is affecting the people around you. You know, they sort
n/a of mirroring that back to
Beth Goldberg them can be really helpful. For the other folks, for the followers, there's no 1 path out, but For a lot of them, they still have some t to reality. And so you want to plant more of these seeds that can become t back to reality. Right? More more little seeds of doubt if you will.
Beth Goldberg Some examples were, you know, people who believed in Q had been told that there were all of these prophecies about a certain date. When something would happen.
John Favreau Yeah.
Beth Goldberg And then when they when that date rolled around and the prophecy didn't come true, they started to accumulate doubts And so I had a few folks I I met what say, hey, by the third time that’s prophecy didn't come true. I I was really having my doubts. It takes a couple of those moments. A couple of those seeds to really germ before the followers realize that maybe they've been dupe. And so if you're gonna be the 1 delivering those seats of doubt, you have to do it with a lot of gentleness and know that it's never gonna be just 1.
Beth Goldberg That's gonna totally get them out. They have to kind of stew on them for a while. And you can very gently sort of ask probing questions of, you know, maybe a loved on a thanksgiving and say, hey. You know, I heard that this was supposed to happen at the election. You.
Beth Goldberg Did that prophecy come true
John Favreau What about the... I'm interested in the election desires, What were some of the stories of how they sort of got out of that rabbit hole?
Beth Goldberg You know, not a lot of them have fully. At least not a lot of ones that I've met. We didn't do a survey of absolutely everyone. So I'm speaking from a small group of folks we met with. But for a lot of them, they were a...
Beth Goldberg They they they came to election denial because they felt something had been taken from them, and they were really angry. Right? They... And they were they were finding this community of people who shared that’s that grievance. And so when they no longer really felt that anger, they kind of slid into an adjacent rabbit hole.
Beth Goldberg Right? It would be... They be really upset about a board. Or they'd be really upset about immigration or they'd be really upset about something else that they could still have community and purpose and something they get them r up and and, you know, posting angry tweets about. But but they were able to sort of just replace whatever that focus was Now.
Beth Goldberg I think a lot of folks are still, you know, believe something happened around the election here and we did this in both. We were talking to election ours in the Us and Brazil. There's definitely still a lot of belief. In in both places that that fraud happened that hasn't totally been been abandoned yet, but we anticipate similar to say Covid nile that folks are eventually just gonna slip into something else that fills that same need for them.
John Favreau I'm just thinking about how... We just had a midterm election. And so far, most of the election desires, the big Lie I believers who lost. Did actually concede. Is that’s does that have an effect Do you think on people who believe some of these conspiracies, like if they start to see other people who once believe what they believe, saying, okay, you know what?
John Favreau I'm I'm I'm gonna... See I'm gonna get Teeth... Is there any evidence that that has an effect?
Beth Goldberg It might, especially for someone like a follower who's doing it because, you know, they're... I their group of people online is, you know, a big fan of Mike Dell, a big fan of, you know, whichever whichever political candidate. They were excited about who lost And if they no longer have that, you know, captain the football team rallying them, they may they may join a different team. Right? Those are sort of more weekly held ties.
Beth Goldberg Some of those folks who, you know, join... Jumped on the bandwagon because friends of theirs were already on the bandwagon. Those are the followers. For the fan, I don't think they're going to give up that easily. Right?
Beth Goldberg They're looking for these really big patterns because for them, these conspiracies are part of a world you. It's not just a 1 off conspiracy theory that their particular representative had their particular, you know, house race stolen. For them, they're seeing that as part of this larger plan by the Cabal. Right? And so so for them...
Beth Goldberg Okay. Yeah. Maybe this 1 race wasn't stolen, but... But the cabal is still out there, you know, mach and and and and stuff in other ballot boxes. Right?
Beth Goldberg So they'll they'll find a way to hold on to that.
John Favreau So you see a love 1 go down this path? You wanna help them. What are some strategies that don't work. What are some strategies that do work? You mentioned sort of placing seeds of doubt?
John Favreau I would love you to sort just expand on that if you could.
Beth Goldberg Yeah. Well, I'll start with what whatnot to. You're ask, you know, what are some general don't work. Facts don't work. Debating people on the facts.
Beth Goldberg You know, that’s there's there's that great line by ben shapiro who loves today, you know, you know, that’s not feelings. Okay.
John Favreau Facts don't care about your feelings.
Beth Goldberg Yeah. I okay. It's actually the rumor. You know, people come to conspiracies because of feelings. They're not coming because of the facts they're coming because they feel right, alienate, isolated and mistrust.
Beth Goldberg And so they need to feel heard. They have some sort of grievance, because that's driving them. So the very first thing to do is actually just listen to someone. And you're listening on 2 layers like on the on the high level what they're actually saying, there's probably gonna be a lot of garbage, and you're just gonna have to, like, you know, write it out. Yep.
Beth Goldberg Be entertained by it, But you're listening at a deeper layer at the same time for their underlying fears. What's actually driving them to believe in something like, you know, that’s the vaccine is going to to para them? What are they are they actually afraid of? Right? Are they really afraid of paralysis or is there something else that that they've been told over and over again about the way that big pharmaceutical companies are hurting people who look like them, Right?
Beth Goldberg Is it tapping into some other deep seated fear? And then the second thing you can do is you can actually acknowledge some of the half truths or some of the tangent truths and what they're saying because every conspiracy theory does have a sea of truth. Right? There is some sort of little little piece in there that you can find common ground on, Especially like, if people are really laying into, like historical man, there is so much stuff you can acknowledge and meet them on and be like, yeah.
n/a The Cia really did mess up, You know, when they...
John Favreau Yeah.
Beth Goldberg You know, only funded the iran contra. Through that’s the nic When we when we over through the Sean around that, yeah, man, that was that was a pretty messed up conspiracy. And so, you know, building some of that common ground and making them feel hurt is absolutely the bedrock to having any of these harder conversations where you're planning the seeds of doubt. For planting the seeds of doubt, a few things that I've heard work pretty well is, you know, you're you're pointing out these false predictions, you're you're pointing out hypocrisy, you know, Mh. Where they're trying to hold 2 things intention that can't possibly both be true at the same time.
Beth Goldberg 1 of the things that I I was really intrigued by and some of the conversations we had was pointing out the relationship between... The conspiracy that they believed in and some really un savory characters or some violence and saying, hey, you know this qa on thing, that's actually motivated people to blow things up or that's motivated people to plot assassination attempts. And, you know, have you ever read the story? Know, are you are you okay being in Ka with this type of character? And that really makes people do a double take and kinda of reflect and say, oh, wow, you know, I came to this because I wanted to save the children from the sex traffickers.
Beth Goldberg You know, I didn't wanna support the you know, the the guy blowing up subways or whatever it is.
John Favreau That that that's really fascinating. Oh I also think the, the point you make about fact checking is is so important because I do think that whether it's the democratic party, whether it's journalism, whether it's activists, a lot of folks online, like, there has been so much invested in trying to make sure that something is debunked or fact checked or that if like, a headline is written the right way or an outlet, reports that Trump just lied that like, that will have this big impact. And, of course, it's very important. That you do report the truth that everyone does. But I think in terms of making an impact in persuading people to believe differently, it doesn't...
John Favreau It seems like simply giving people the facts is just not sufficient.
Beth Goldberg Yeah. I mean, you... You've talked before you're about how people are so cal. Right now. Right?
Beth Goldberg Like, if you're entrenched in your position, you've closed your ears. You are not open to what the other side has to say at all. If anything you're listening so that you can, you know, improve your own ammunition and in your own rebuttal. Right? And so I think there's a little bit of that that can happen, That’s at a family dinner table where people are listening only so that they can, you know, pick a fight.
Beth Goldberg And I think we really have to change that approach. Right? And really come with a lot more compassion because people aren't turning to conspiracy. Theories when they're doing well. People aren't turning to conspiracy.
Beth Goldberg Theories is when they're kinda down and out. Right? Yeah. You're really struggling with something. And so even even when it's exhausting, you have to just sort of listen with them.
John Favreau Yeah.
Beth Goldberg The other thing we can do, you know, very last sort of tactic. I've seen work really well is we can help people find alternative communities. Right? If the main thing they're seeking with these conspiracies is a movement to be part of, then let's help them join some sort of local movement that’s actually doing good in the world. Internet’s have them, you know, foster dogs or Yeah.
Beth Goldberg We had it 1 woman go from running q not groups to running, like, crystal groups. And I was like, great. You know, you're still like, you're still getting into the magic of things. I like that for you. This is totally healthy and in terms of, you know, it's not it's not harming anyone.
Beth Goldberg It's not spinning far right conspiracy theories. You're not you're not doing any damage with crystals.
John Favreau That's very interesting. And I do think that's where a lot of people who are involved in political organizing, sort of pursue. Those kind of tactics and strategies versus a lot of sort of the the online posting wars. If you're actually trying to get people to join your campaign or to join your movement or to join your organization, you're out there, trying to make it seem fun and joyful and interesting because you're trying to build a rival community to whatever community, they belong to.
Beth Goldberg These are some incredibly talented movement builders. Right? They've they've actually built some really useful transferable skill sets. They can put these on their resume. Maybe they shouldn't do that, but they shouldn't them to build other communities.
Beth Goldberg Right? Whether it's, you know, online communities or offline communities, they they really... They can repurpose this sort of movement building and of sense of purpose and sense of belonging.
John Favreau You've done some fascinating research on another strategy to fight conspiracy theories called pre debunk. What is pre bunk?
Beth Goldberg Yet. Pre debunk is fascinating. It's this really promising approach to get ahead of misinformation. Right? We spend so much time talking about debunk.
Beth Goldberg You know, you were just noting how. We and trying to fact check every...
John Favreau I check our way out of this for a long.
Beth Goldberg See. We have. And we're a little bit too late when we're able. Right? In part because we know misinformation is really sticky.
Beth Goldberg It sticks in our brains really well, often because it's really sensational. And also because we have this first impression bias. So if if someone's first impression of the misinformation is the misinformation itself, like, that's gonna have an advantage. If we can get to someone first and warn them. A pre bunk is is this preemptive warning that says, hey, you're likely to encounter something that looks like this.
Beth Goldberg Next time you're online. This is manipulative, and here's why. It actually is using the the metaphor of a vaccine. It's like a vaccine for your brain. And as as a fellow political nerd, Feel like, you appreciate the origin story behind pre bunk.
Beth Goldberg So there is
John Favreau yeah
Beth Goldberg I William Maguire in the 19 sixties. He's a... Social psychologist. And he got tapped by the Us government who said, hey, we have physical armor for our rg gi going overseas during the cold war. We want them to have mental armor against this communist propaganda.
Beth Goldberg Can you help us come up with mental armor for Gi? And so william Maguire comes up with this thing calls in population theory. And he actually sells it to the Us government as this vaccine for brain, which I love.
John Favreau Wow.
Beth Goldberg That's literally what what it's been used for in the, you know, the many decades since. That’s it's been applied across environmental movements, it's been used in marketing, it's used in a lot of public health campaigns. And we're just now realizing the promise of what this looks like in a digitally age. Right? Where we can put it into really short form snippets like videos and infographics and memes and dis it really widely online and get out ahead of that really fast moving misinformation-tackling,
John Favreau so you guys at Jigsaw created a couple of these videos? And then you conducted a study where more than? 20000 people, I think watch them. Let's take a listen to to just a clip of 1 of them.
n/a You might think about skipping the sad. Don't. What happens next we'll make you tear up. Wait. You're still here?
n/a I mean, great looks like the trick work You see when watching videos or browsing online, you are likely to encounter content that is loaded with emotional language and with good reason. Playing into emotions, especially negative ones, such as fear, anger or contempt? Is it trick to get you to pay attention to something when you otherwise wouldn't. It's likely that's a big reason why you're still watching this ad is because you were lured in by our use of emotional language in the very first sentence. Research has shown that expressing emotion is key for the spread of moral and especially political ideas in social networks.
John Favreau Fascinating video, can you tell us more about the study and what you guys found?
Beth Goldberg Yeah. So we teamed up with a number of academics. Who have been studying this technique for a while now. Were with folks at the Universities of Cambridge and Bristol on this. And we wanted to understand Can we get way out ahead of political misinformation in particular by identifying these common techniques that manipulator prop use?
Beth Goldberg Right? What are some of the most common things that we can we can anticipate they're gonna use every election cycle? We can anticipate they'll use in, you know, generic political propaganda. And so some of these like the ones in that video are like emotional manipulation, fear mon, super common. And so we wanted to know, can we teach people?
Beth Goldberg In just 30 seconds, how to identify what that looks like? And and then spot it themselves when we show them examples. So we we did these tests first in a lab setting where we sort of paid people to to sit down and answer our questions and watch our videos. And we were really hardened by what we found because across different types of Americans, we had representative sample of... Old folks and young folks and different demographics and different education levels, these videos worked.
Beth Goldberg People were better able to identify when something had emotional language. They were less trusting of it, and then they were less likely to share it. So we're like, okay, this worked in a lab setting where we paid you to pay attention. Let's let's take this to social media. Let's go to the wild.
Beth Goldberg So And so we took that video that you just heard, and we basically bought ads on Youtube. And we showed it as as an ad to people to over a million Americans. And then we followed up the next day with a quick little survey right in the Youtube player to see if people remembered what they what they've seen the day before. And we really were testing, you know, did they learn a How do Identify fear mon? And we found that on average 5 to 10 percent of people were better able to identify?
Beth Goldberg Those those manipulation techniques, which I know sounds really small. But if you think about it, that's a million people 5 percent of them paid enough attention to an ad, which I never do. No. I know something.
John Favreau Well, they're compelling... They're very compelling videos. I I was watching them last night in preparation for this. I was wondering like, I I noticed that there are some limits to this to the effectiveness and that it's... I think I read that it was a little a little more challenging.
John Favreau When it's about politics specifically and that the... And that’s it works for between like, the retention is, like between a a week and a month but then you kinda have to keep hitting people with the stuff or else, they'll forget about it.
Beth Goldberg Yeah. I'll I'll take the timeline limitation first. This is just like a a vaccine for your body where the the resistance you gain from that, the antibodies you build. They wear off over time. Same thing here with your mental antibodies.
Beth Goldberg You you get them from these videos for a little while, but like, with any intervention like, any any sort of mental educational intervention. It's gonna decay. And so what we found from these particular videos, they last for for a solid 10 days, and then we're doing going to start to see decay, over over the course of the month. But just like a vaccine, you can give people a booster. So 1 really cool study we have coming out and some other folks have been testing this as well is, you know, can we give you even like a 10:15 second reminder, a little booster of of what you saw in that first video and get you all the way back up of full mental immunity.
Beth Goldberg And and we found that at least in the lab setting that that works really well. And so definitely some some more research needed on that, Now does it work on political topics, when people have really strongly held opinions on something. Right? If you've totally bought into this narrative, I'm really unlikely to convince you in a single 30 second video that you're wrong.
John Favreau Right.
Beth Goldberg Right. It's it's supposed to be a prem monk that that's supposed to get out ahead of it. But if you've already bought into it fully It's a little too late. So so that's 1 limitation of this approach. We're trying trying to get out head of things.
Beth Goldberg So, like, if we made some videos with foley Harvard school public health and American University on vaccine he. And for folks who are super vaccine, you know, resistant. The that’s this video wasn't gonna do anything for them. So we we really targeted to the people who were more vaccine hesitant in whose minds maybe we're willing to be shifted by by a video.
John Favreau You mentioned before that so much of this is trust is at the core that’s the problem here is that miss mistrust in institutions which has been open on the rise for the last several decades. And and a conspiracy theorist probably won't trust reputable, polished information sources. What kind of sources or language do you recommend people use with friends and family, who may be conspiracy theorists maybe election desires or or vaccine hesitant that’s that won't sort of ar their mistrust
Beth Goldberg That's a really good question. I'll I'll answer it first by focusing on how pre bunk does that in the language and the approach it. It uses and then maybe offer some thoughts on... Free all of all of the dinner table thanksgiving. But with with pre provoking, we found that it's worked across the political spectrum in the And abroad and that's really rare for anything with misinformation Mean, you know well how how polarized things like fact checks are.
n/a Right?
Beth Goldberg So this to work equally effectively across the aisle was was huge. And part of the reason why we think is the language it uses is around self defense. You need to equip yourself, defend yourself against the manipulator. And the manipulation coming your way online. And it's not naming names about who's doing the manipulating or what the specific claims are, but it's just saying you have to defend yourself.
Beth Goldberg Onus on you to to to do some self defense. That, I think really taps... Into this American individual and it really taps into this this sort of self reliance narrative that we that we like here. That could work at the dinner table too with family and friends, saying things like, you know, if you... If you're really concerned about protecting your freedom, you know, maybe you should think about this from this larger societal perspective of how...
Beth Goldberg You know, whatever. This policy is expanding freedoms for everyone. But but I also think you need to come at it with compassion and say, you know, I really acknowledge, This has been a tough year for you. Or this has been a tough year for all of us. And, yeah, the government has done x y and z that hasn't been great.
Beth Goldberg But... You know, and then you can point out really obvious limitations of, you know, big pharma, big government, whoever the the bad guy is and say things like... There's no way the government could coordinate every single physics teacher in America to all tell you the Earth is round when it's really flat. Like, they have no ability to coordinate that
n/a effectively. So I think there's for some playful that you can bring
Beth Goldberg into this too when you're starting to drop those seeds that’s.
John Favreau I do the playful I think is important too. I mean, I that just reminded me of there's a lot of people who think that, like, the Dnc is... Rigging everything or whatever else and as someone who worked in politics. I'm like, I don't know that’s the Dnc can, like, run a 1 car per parade, let alone rig Yeah There's there's a little bit of that that I think that sort of disarm people a little bit.
n/a Funny. I mean, if people are so alienate from these systems of power they don't know how the sausage is made. And sometimes it's worth lifting the hood and being like, the sausage making is terribly dysfunctional and messy.
Beth Goldberg And yeah, they That means they could never pull off this conspiracy theory that you're so worried about.
John Favreau Which is why and and a lot of people have said this, but real... Real politics is much more like v than it is has of cards.
Beth Goldberg Oh my god. So true. Yes. They just do much beep. Yeah.
John Favreau So so like, back to where we started, you're sitting at the Thanksgiving table, and you've got, you know, your your uncle who posts on Facebook all that’s time is popping off. It does sound like you wanna listen. You wanna show some compassion and empathy with time perhaps a larger struggle that that person's having. And then you wanna sort of maybe plant some seeds of doubt, and then also try to encourage that person to equip themselves to fight off people who might be trying to manipulate them.
Beth Goldberg That's absolutely right. And you can also really build some points in there book by acknowledging, where really, you know, things do go wrong. And, you know, there really are some true conspiracies or, you know, there really is that seed of truth at the heart of why, you know. Pharmaceutical companies do x y and Z Right? You know Mh.
Beth Goldberg Really, you can meet them halfway and and don't try to win the debate in 1 dinner. Now, you're not going to change their minds immediately. This is something that people have built identities around. Right? You don't...
Beth Goldberg You're not gonna change someone's identity overnight. But when you've planted those seeds, you can check back in on them every few weeks or something. And and we'll see, you know, hey, maybe let me share this podcast with you. Let me share this article. Thread.
Beth Goldberg Right? And you can sort of keep watering that seed that you've planted. But but but it takes people months often to really fully let go of some of these deeply held beliefs.
John Favreau So you can you can start it during thanksgiving dinner and then maybe catch up with them again on New Year's. You keep the work going.
Beth Goldberg Exactly. Exactly.
John Favreau Beth Goldberg, thank you so much for for joining offline. This is fascinating. Thank you so much for the research you're doing. I think it's just It's unbelievably helpful, and I'm glad you're out there doing it. So thank you.
Beth Goldberg