Summary How to Outsmart Republicans with Billy Ray (Youtube) youtu.be
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Speaker 0 Welcome back to iGen Politics. This is a podcast that makes politics and genuine relevant for all generations. This is Victor Shi.
Speaker 1 And I'm Jill Wine Banks. And today's hashtag, Jillspin, is an old fashioned movie television camera with actual film reels attached to it, and that's because we have a very exciting Hollywood guest today.
Speaker 0 President Biden is back. In the last week, he has been leading in at least 5 polls released, which is causing many to believe that perhaps that fiery, strong, and energetic State of the Union speech he gave had a positive impact on how people view the message he is delivering and him as the messenger and nominee of the Democratic Party. Today, we are going to ask our guest about messaging and what Democrats must do to win big this November, both at the presidential level and down ballot.
Speaker 1 And that guest is Billy Ray, an Emmy Award winning writer for the Hunger Games and so much more. He also wrote The Comey Rule as well as numerous other films, including Color of Night, Captain Phillips, and Shattered Glass, all really great films. Billy also is heavily involved in politics and is advising more than 80 Democratic candidates on messaging and strategy. He also hosts Deadline's podcast called Strike Talks, which is reportedly the highest rated podcast in Hollywood's Deadline family of 13 podcasts. Who better than a Hollywood writer to help with messaging?
Speaker 1 We are very grateful for Billy to be with us today, and we thank you, Billy, for joining Igen Politics today.
Speaker 2 It is a privilege to be asked.
Speaker 0 Well, we're we're so we're so glad tonight. You know, this this came about because I saw you last week at a Jewish deli, and so it's great to have this conversation with you, here. As we're recording this, President Biden right now is ahead in at least 5 polls after the State of the Union. And we wanted to ask you as a writer, what you think about sort of the messaging of that event, the exact right words so an audience understands and feels the message as intended, And and sort of if you thought the tone, and the pointed contrast between his and his agenda and MAGA extremist was the right 1.
Speaker 2 I do. And I think it was also true last year at the state of the union. You know, 65% of Americans don't think they matter. They don't think they matter to their families. They don't think they matter to their communities.
Speaker 2 They don't think they matter to our collective future as American. And that need to matter is primal. We come out of the womb needing to matter. If that need is not met, society crumbles. What Biden does so well is he keeps telling people that they matter and that they matter to him specifically.
Speaker 2 He makes the American worker the hero of every story, and I think that's why it resonates. That's
Speaker 1 such a interesting insight and it I I'm gonna divert for a second because I once had a conversation with the chief of police who was talking about why gangs are so successful, and it's because they make their members believe that they matter, that there are rules, and that there are consequences for breaking the rules. And that's the same thing you're saying. So is there anything you would have improved in president Biden's delivery or his content?
Speaker 2 No. I I I I thought he knocked it out of the park. I mean, he generally does. You know, 1 of the things that I've noticed about the mainstream media is that in an effort to make everything look more cliffhanger y than it actually is, they keep trying to tear the guy down so that the election will seem close. I don't think that that it actually is, to be honest with you.
Speaker 2 I don't think we're a divided country. I don't think we're close to divided. I mean, as a matter of fact, when they put minimum wage on the ballot in Florida, it got 60%. They put it on ballot in Arkansas, 2 thirds of the country was with us on minimum wage. 2 thirds of the country is with us, on abortion and on not wanting government mandated pregnancy.
Speaker 2 2 2 thirds of the country is with us on guns, on protecting Social Security, on protecting Medicare, on the environment, on decriminalizing cannabis. On all the things that matter, 2 thirds of the country is with us. We are not a divided country. If Democrats can learn how to get out of their own way on cultural issues, elections won't be closed.
Speaker 1 So what are we doing wrong then? I mean, it it you're right. When you're individually polled on the issues that Democrats stand for, the country is with the Democratic position. And yet they're not voting that way. And, certainly, because of the electoral college, we aren't winning all the races we should win at the presidential level.
Speaker 2 That is true. But in 2016, there were 6,200,000 Americans who had voted for Obama and then voted for Trump, called flip voters. 1,300,000 of them were in 3 states, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania. That's which is why the blue wall crumbled. So somebody very smart did a deep dive on those 1,300,000 voters.
Speaker 2 Why had they flipped in the way that they had? And here's what they found out. On average, those 1,300,000 voters in those 3 states work 2 and a half jobs. They commute 3 hours a day, and they think about politics 4 minutes per week. Per week.
Speaker 2 Wow. So you're not going to get them on an argument about the filibuster or the debt ceiling. They don't care. It's got nothing to do with their life. You go up to that voter in Eau Claire, in Lansing, what have you.
Speaker 2 Again, he's working 2 and a half jobs. He's commuting 3 hours a day, and and he's thinking about politics 4 minutes per week. I guarantee you he's taking his medication every other day to make 30 pills last 60 days. His kid's school is falling apart. His mom's in a nursing home, if he's lucky.
Speaker 2 And Americans consume 80% of the opiates in the world, so throw that in there too. You go up to that guy and say, you've got white privilege and I don't like your pronouns. He's gonna tell you to go screw yourself and he's gonna go running into the armed with the nearest Republican. But we, as Democrats, insist that people celebrate things that they have just learned how to tolerate, And that's not the same thing. Okay?
Speaker 2 Because if you were to say to that guy gay rights, he'd say, okay. I don't care. I know a gay guy. He works in HR. He's fine, and I'm fine.
Speaker 2 But don't tell me if I don't march in a parade, I'm a homophobe. Right? But Democrats say to them, if you don't come all the way with us, you're a knuckle dragger, and we're gonna cancel you. And that's how we lose them, and that's how we don't get them back. If you were to pull any American in any house race in America, they would all tell you the same thing.
Speaker 2 The the Republican was an asshole and the democrat was an elitist and the asshole never made me feel dumb. That's the only way we lose. The only way.
Speaker 1 Thank you for saying that. I I wanna take a quick break in the recording just to ask you. I I don't know if you saw that Victor and I wrote an op ed together about the, state of the union where we were sort of arguing for a new format and a new way of presenting it and using social media. If you haven't had a chance to see it, we aren't gonna ask about whether you agree that some of our suggestions would have worked. We'll just skip right ahead.
Speaker 2 I did not have a chance to see it, but if you I didn't I didn't I didn't see it, but if you wanna recommend it to me as if the article hasn't yet been written, I'm happy to talk about it.
Speaker 1 Oh, okay. We we could sort of ask some just broad general questions, about it.
Speaker 2 Okay. Sure. And I also I just wanna follow-up on that idea of the cultural issues if I could just continue for a second. Yeah.
Speaker 1 Definitely. Because you you were going great on that. I loved everything you were saying.
Speaker 2 Okay. So are we recording? Yep. Okay. So the way that it's it expresses itself in most people's lives is that they think we're saying to them, oh, no.
Speaker 2 No. No. You can't say pregnant women anymore. You gotta say pregnant persons, which makes us sound insane. And they think that we're saying, oh, no.
Speaker 2 No. You can't say breastfeeding. You gotta say chestfeeding, which makes us sound even crazier. Okay? Remember that for most people, their experience of government is the HR person in their office who basically tells them they can't look, breathe, or smile the way that they're used to.
Speaker 2 And that's and they think of that as a democratic idea. They think that we are telling them how to talk, which again goes back to this idea of you don't matter. Right. And every time we tell them that they don't matter, they go running into the arms of the nearest republic.
Speaker 1 Great point. If we can, I just wanna let you know that Victor and I wrote an op ed for MSNBC about the state of the union address? And it was basically sort of our being brazen in giving advice to the president of the United States who doesn't, of course, need our advice. He has great advisers. But we had some ideas that we thought would broaden the audience and make people feel heard and cared about in the same way you're talking about that it would make people really absorb the message.
Speaker 1 And, Victor, why don't you talk about some of the points we made and see if if, Billy, who's much more expert at this than we are, thinks that any of these could help in future state of the unions or even future speeches anywhere.
Speaker 0 Well, the the premise of the op ed was really taking what I think a lot of people consider this sort of insider y DC high production event that only gets to, you know, people who watch cable news and traditional media outlets and expanding it to a newer media, market, whether it's social media, you know, enlisting influencers and surrogates to then spread that message out there. You know, even changing the the, format of the State of the Union, whether it's through, people speaking about their stories and how the president's policies have impacted them. And so we were just sort of thinking about the changes that can be done to it, an event like the State of the Union that traditionally doesn't reach that younger and newer audience. And we would love to sort of hear your thoughts on how you think that we can make these presidential speeches that traditionally are used to have, I think, a large impact on society generally. Whereas now it's sort of just with all our fragmented media is becoming harder.
Speaker 2 I think that's a good idea, and I think, like, so much of what Biden does, it just needs to be produced a little bit better. Yeah. I mean, to me, if I if someone said to me, how do you get more people to watch the State of the Union? I remember when I was a kid, when ABC did the Olympics, they used to do this thing called up close and personal, where they would take you into the story of the athletes back home and how they got to the Olympics. And so that when they were lined up at the starting line, you thought, oh my god.
Speaker 2 I know their story. This is amazing. They have to win. Right. I think you could do that for the president.
Speaker 2 I I would like to see before he just shows up in in, house representatives to deliver that speech, I would have done you know, 2 days before, I would have been releasing clips of him with people around him writing the speech Mhmm. And talking about what's important and letting us see why he's saying what he's saying. And and then to be honest with you, I would show the bad guys too. Every story needs a bad guy. So I would I would do a behind the scenes on the Republicans and how they're crafting their response and the incredible cynicism and dishonesty, and I think perjury, that goes into that kind of response.
Speaker 2 I mean, that would have been awesome to see how senator Britt came up with the idea of doing that response in her kitchen. I I would love to have that 1 on on film, so that you know, like, who's Rocky and who's Apollo Creed walking into the ring.
Speaker 1 Her response was 1 that didn't even need to be parodied because it looked like it was a Saturday Night Live skit. Although they did a good job with it, they did a good job. But, man, that was it was your mouth hung open going like, I can't believe they thought this was a good idea. It's insane.
Speaker 2 Yeah. But well, okay. This is again what I'm saying. This party is in free fall, the Republican party. They have they they are so wedded to this anvil, and they don't know they don't know how to escape it.
Speaker 2 And so they're all in, and and they're gonna go down with that ship. And and people like senator Britt are gonna lead the way.
Speaker 0 Mhmm. So so let's dive deeper into sort of how Democrats, should be messaging generally because I think anyone who's listened to you up to this point probably knows the the genius of your messaging strategy. So how should Democrats be crafting their messages specifically in this election cycle, and and some of the issues they should be focusing on?
Speaker 2 I I've been studying this since the day Trump was elected, and I realized that my future happiness and mental health literally hinged on stopping you. That I I was I was not going to survive as that guy had unchecked power for a million reasons. And what I've realized is that all elections come down to 2 things. What do people want and what are they afraid of? That's really everything.
Speaker 2 And if you can get underneath the hood and understand that, you can make the engine run right. Okay. So let's look at the voters that matter, which are undecided independent. That's roughly 25% of independents right now that are still movable 1 way or another. They tend to lean conservative, and they tend to be cranky.
Speaker 2 So Democrats need to find a new language. They need to speak in a new kind of frequency because the the frequency the Democrats typically speak in can be heard by Liberals but cannot be heard by conservatives. Liberal. They're like like dogs that can't hear in certain ways. What and and to to reach them, you have to understand what it is that they're afraid of.
Speaker 2 What is it that they don't want? Conservative minds, psychologically, what what makes a conservative a conservative on a psychological level, what binds them together as a political group is their shared fear of chaos. That's what we represent to them. That's what they have been that's what every Republican has been running on for as long as I've been alive. The, Willie Horton ad that buried Michael Dukakis in 1988 essentially said, if you vote for Michael Dukakis, Dukakis, a black convict on furlough is gonna come murder your family.
Speaker 2 K. Democrats are soft on crime. Chaos. Then after 9:11, it became Democrats are soft on terror. Chaos.
Speaker 2 Now the argument is Democrats for open borders. Democrats are for burning cities. Democrats wanted to defund the police. Democrats don't care if your son becomes your daughter. Chaos.
Speaker 2 Chaos. Chaos. If you give a conservative the choice between authoritarianism and what they perceive to be chaos, they'll pick authoritarianism every time. They're doing it right in front of us. So we, as Democrats, must redefine ourselves as the antidote to chaos, which means we have to rebrand what chaos is.
Speaker 2 Chaos is people showing up at polling showing up at polling places where they are fifteens. Chaos is January 6th. Remember when there were 30 cars backed up in that rural hospital parking lot because Trump didn't have an answer for COVID? That's chaos. We just wanna govern.
Speaker 2 We're the people who, when the I 95 collapses and everyone says it'll take a year to rebuild, we rebuilt it in 16 days. That's what we do. We're not trying to reinvent the wheel. We are just trying to take care of the big stuff so that you're free to live your best life and get your kids to school on time. That's the message.
Speaker 1 I wanna follow-up on what you just mentioned about the bridge collapse because we had a chance to have, a text exchange with you before we started recording, and you had a great thought about how the messaging about the bridge collapse could be something that would really make all voters realize what democrats were, what they stood for. And so I wanted to ask you to delve more into the the 3 words that you said would help Sure. Message about that and and describe it a little more because it was really brilliant.
Speaker 2 Well, that's a big word for it, but rescue, rebuild, reopen. That's what you do. Okay? This is a chance for Democrats. That's a Democrat controlled state.
Speaker 2 Show America. This is how we do it. Right? We're not gonna politicize anything. We're just gonna put on our hard hats and go to work.
Speaker 2 Yeah. Rescue, rebuild, reopen, and watch what happens.
Speaker 1 I think it's But
Speaker 2 this time this time when we do it, take a few goddamn pictures in front of it so that you can use it as campaign fodder until November because these are the sort of opportunities that Democrats, for some reason, are so good at fixing and so bad at messaging.
Speaker 1 And and the way to vote should be on the governing and the fixing. And and I love that you had these 3 words that sort of reminded me of brilliance of republican messaging, where they adopted this make America great again, which means nothing. And America already I mean, it it was nonsense, but it was like a phrase that just stuck. And for me, rescue, rebuild, and reopen is 1 stick. And and president Biden did it today, have a press conference at which he said our first priority is rescue.
Speaker 1 And, of course, it is. And then he said, and then we, the federal government, will pay for the complete rebuild. And someone said to him, well, isn't the shipping company responsible? They did it. And he said, we'll pay for it now to get it done so they could reopen.
Speaker 1 They he didn't know that you had already said this unless you maybe maybe he did. Maybe you're communicating with him. But he did exactly say, but he didn't use those words. And so I think we need to start putting on social media a hashtag for those words, because it is exactly what Democrats will do.
Speaker 0 We could totally see a shirt. I mean, maybe maybe we'll we'll get that started, rescue, rebuild, reopen. But to to Joel's point, if I can add a follow-up question to that. You know, 1 of the things to her point about Republican messaging that that I find fascinating and and scary is that you're able to take these really sort of meaningless and hollow words and turn it into something that sticks with their voters. And I'm wondering, I mean, to to your point about re rescue, rebuild, reopen, other sort of potential trades or or or simple words or or phrases that could sort of change people's minds about specific issues or about president Biden generally?
Speaker 2 Yeah. Absolutely. And by the way, you know, if I were evil, I would have been the greatest republican strategist of all time. Because because Republicans, they are message discipline warriors.
Speaker 1 Yes.
Speaker 2 And when you tell them something like build the wall, they just go do it. By the way, the reason this build the wall worked is because conservatives like walls around the thing. They like borders around things. They like borders around countries. They like borders around gender.
Speaker 2 They like borders around sexuality. So build the wall, crack. In the same way that lock her up, crack. Republicans, tend to pitch very simplistic solutions to very complex problems, which may make for great bumper stickers. Okay.
Speaker 2 So here are a few things that I think Democrats should do. First of all, on guns. Okay? If you talk about universal background checks, you are speaking to a group of people who are already suspicious of a strong central government, and that sounds like something big brother would do, universal background checks. Do you know if you change that terminology to violent history checks, 95% of America comes with you.
Speaker 2 95, including 73% of NRA member. So let's say violent history check instead of, universal background checks. Start there. Then when you talk about, the environment, climate change just scares the crap out of people. They don't know what it means.
Speaker 2 They just know that it's scary. But if you talk about climate rescue, all of a sudden it sounds like you yeah. And all politics are as are aspirational. So let's talk about climate rescue. And when you're talking about abortion, stop using the word abortion.
Speaker 2 You know, we had to defend that damn thing for 50 years, and it was a it was an anvil around all of our necks. All of a sudden, they have to defend government mandated pregnancy. So let's talk about that. You know, that woman in Texas, government mandated pregnancy. She didn't wanna have that kid.
Speaker 2 She wasn't ready to have that kid, but the government was mandating that she have it. So let's talk about that. In every way possible, let us break the frame. When we are invited into a conversation that's a trap, reject the premise of the question. You don't have to answer it just because it was a.
Speaker 2 Ridiculous. That's nonsense. That's like, you know, when I was a kid, we used to make that joke. Actually, skip that part.
Speaker 1 Oh, go ahead with that.
Speaker 2 Point is no. No. It's okay. It's okay. It was 1 of those things that you would say in the seventies that you wouldn't say anymore.
Speaker 2 So please edit that part out. Okay. Okay. But, anyway, the the point is that we whenever we allow Republicans to dictate the terms of the debate, we're gonna sink every time, and it's unnecessary. Like, for example, when Biden was out there, talking about Build Back Better, there was a phrase out there, working for working people, that pulled 25 points higher.
Speaker 2 25 points. Really? Why did we stick why did we stick with Build Back Better? Yeah. I mean, I happen to know this because I thought up working for working people and I went to a pollster and I said, could you please go poll this against Build Back Better?
Speaker 2 And they did. It outpolled it by 25 points.
Speaker 1 Wow. Well, I understand you're working for a lot of Democrats now. I hope that that number expands and that they
Speaker 2 can't win
Speaker 1 the advice. But let's go back to some of the specific issues. I mean, you mentioned our 3 top ones that we wanted to ask about, but another 1 is the issue of Israel and Gaza. And Sure. Literally, Victor and I have this conversation because, of course, this is an intergenerational podcast.
Speaker 1 But Gaza and Israel don't have the same meaning to Victor's generation that they do to my generation. And so what is the way to message on what needs to be done to protect Israel, to protect civilians in Gaza, and to make it make sense to particularly young people?
Speaker 2 To me, the bottom line is that the Palestinian people cannot be safe if Hamas is in power. That to me is the simplest message possible. Like, just take Israel out of the equation for a second. And I say this as someone who is Jewish and was raised Jewish. I think Netanyahu's crook.
Speaker 2 I think he may be a he may very well be a war criminal on top of everything else. That guy should not be in power. And so you can be Jewish and be highly critical of Israel, and you can be highly critical of Israel and not be an anti Semite. But there is this incredibly reductive, and very binary idea that gets spread on college campuses, which is an outgrowth of identity politics Yeah. Which is that everybody is either the oppressor or the oppressed and that there's no gray in between.
Speaker 2 And and if you went to an American university in the last 10 years, you were taught that Israel is the oppressor and the Palestinians are the oppressed, and you will identify with the, oppressed even if you're Jewish. And I've I've spoken to a number of 20 year old kids of of Jewish friends of mine who are anti Zionist now because they have totally bought into this idea of the oppressor and the oppressed. Well, the fact is it's more nuanced than that. It's vastly more complicated than that. And and and and there is wrong on both sides.
Speaker 2 But the first thing that is universally true is that Hamas must be taken out of power. Is the only hope for the Palestinian people.
Speaker 1 You know, it's not only the hope for the Palestinian people, but Israel cannot survive if Hamas is allowed to continue because I I read a meme that said, if the Arabs, meaning Hamas, lays down their arms
Speaker 2 Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1 That's there will be peace. If Israel does, there will be no Israel. Arms. And so I think there has to be some way to get young people to realize that this is an existential threat to Israel to have Hamas.
Speaker 2 I don't I don't agree. I don't agree because I don't think they care. I don't think they care. I don't think on most college campuses, you will get far with the argument that Hamas must be neutralized in order to save Israel. But if you make the argument that Hamas must be neutralized in order to save the Palestinians, I think you get much farther.
Speaker 0 Interesting.
Speaker 1 Good point. And
Speaker 0 Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's a great point. And I think to your point, I mean, there there is this conversation does also seem to be happening, especially on a lead college campuses, the top of the top. And it's not an issue that I think is actually being discussed all that much on, you know, in rural Iowa and Wisconsin.
Speaker 0 But, I wanted to ask you more about your point about the frame. Because last week when we got together, we talked about that concept of establishing a frame. Can you talk more about that? No.
Speaker 2 That I'll take What
Speaker 0 it means and maybe a few examples of how Democrats can establish that frame in communication and messaging?
Speaker 2 Sure. Breaking the frame means rejecting the premise of the question. In 2002, 2003, when w wanted to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, he sent Dick Cheney out on every Sunday morning talk show to defend it. And on every Sunday morning talk show, Cheney got asked the same question, which is what's the cost going in terms of men, material, and money? And every single time Cheney broke the frame, he said, what's the cost of not going?
Speaker 2 Right? Because had he answered the question, we would have been, well, I think we'll be there 20 years. I think we're gonna spend $7,000,000,000,000 and I think we're gonna lose him 5,000 American lives. And then he would've lost, which would've been better, but he broke the frame. Now conversely, go to October 7, 2016.
Speaker 2 The Access Hollywood tape is discovered. A couple days later, Hillary's debating Trump. The first question's about the tape. She does 90 seconds on sexual predators, which changed changed nobody's mind. Imagine if she had broken the frame.
Speaker 2 Imagine if her answer had been, I'm not gonna comment on the Access Hollywood tape. The world can make up its own mind about Donald Trump because my focusing on that tape won't get 1 of your job. It won't get 1 of your health care. It won't clean 1 river or build 1 school. And that's what my administration's about.
Speaker 2 That's what I'm just doing on 90 seconds on. True runs by 10 points. But she just couldn't or wouldn't do it. It's hard for fair minded people to break the frame because people feel that they're asked a straight question. They are duty bound to deliver a straight answer.
Speaker 2 But in politics, that's not true. In that business, like in my business, if you're explaining, you're losing. So the most important thing when you're asked a question that's an obvious trap is to turn it around and make it a problem for the person who asked the question, not a problem for you. So for example, if you're a Democrat and you're running against a Republican, oh, let's just pull something out of thin air named Ted Cruz. And, and in a debate, he tells a lie about you.
Speaker 2 You don't defend yourself. You don't set the record straight. You said, Ted, this the state, Texas, is is facing some pretty serious problems as our country is. And I think we can solve them if we deal with them in a serious way. We're not gonna solve them by lying about my record, so you need to stop that.
Speaker 2 And then when Ted does it again, you say, Ted, we we talked about this. I mean, as you know, the job of being a senator is about serving the people of the state. You don't serve them by lying about my record, so you need to stop this. And then when he does it a third time, you say, Ted, I'm starting to think you've got a listening problem. So while you're over there dancing by yourself in in fiction land, I'm gonna be over here dealing with the things that people actually care about, which are inflation and the cost of prescription drugs and the quality of our schools and, all the things that the democits are trying to focus on all day long.
Speaker 2 When you're ready to join the big boy conversation, we'll be here. Come on. Bye.
Speaker 1 Wow. Billy, if you haven't written a book of advice, you should.
Speaker 2 Because I do.
Speaker 1 I've no. I'm serious. I mean, Netti Hassan wrote a book about how to win every argument. What you've just said encapsulates much more than than that and is really I I just I it's like I want every candidate to have that advice and to have someone in their ear. You should train
Speaker 2 Well, I I trainers. I do. I do. And, you know, there are, like, 85 sitting members in the house and senate, that I do messaging for and another 30 candidates that are running in this cycle. And and, and I I I do it 1 on 1 with them, and and then they go out and and they execute.
Speaker 2 Oh, good.
Speaker 1 That's that I'm I'm feeling relieved. I hope you're doing it in all the places with all the really narrow speed margins where we really need it. And,
Speaker 2 I Here's what happens. Okay? Here's what happens. They it used to be that, they would reach out to me because they needed fundraising. And I would say to him, okay.
Speaker 2 I'll fund grace for you. But first, you gotta sit down with me for 40 minutes so I can talk to you about how to sound less like a Democrat, how to make arguments that independent voters can actually hear. And that's how I built it. Like, literally candidate by candidate. That started in 2017.
Speaker 2 And so by by election night of 2018, that midterm, I was working with 30 Democrats running in red districts, and and that meant speech writing or debate prep or rapid response or whatever they needed. And of those 30, 21 of them won that night, which was thrilling. I can't take credit for those wins. They were great candidates. But I know that in some of the close races, you know, we helped.
Speaker 2 And and so it all built from there. And so now, candidates or their advisers, will reach out and say, can you talk to my guy or or or, my girl? And and, and I get to talk to them about the same issues. And and and as long as they have a comms person on the Zoom to take notes, it goes pretty well. Mhmm.
Speaker 2 Like
Speaker 1 that. That's that's amazing. And I I you're making me wanna move to like, you are a writer, and you write screenplays that are extremely successful. And I'm just wondering, first of all, how you ended up in a career in writing, but whether everything you do for movies, translates into what you advise politicians about communicating because really and, you know, 1 thing you said hurts me to the quick, which is because of my legal training, when I'm asked a question, I feel like I must answer that question. I was trained that when a judge interrupts you, you don't say, well, I'll get to that eventually.
Speaker 1 You stop and you answer that question. Go back to that about how you got into this and whether writing for for scripts translates into writing for political messaging.
Speaker 2 It absolutely does because when you are writing a movie, you're trying to locate the audience emotionally. You're trying to get them where you want them to be. I mean, screenwriting is an intellectual exercise. Yeah. But it's designed to elicit an emotional response.
Speaker 2 If I if I write a script and I give it to a friend and a friend says, this is the smartest script I've ever read, I have failed a 1000% because I'm hitting them in their head instead of in their guts. And people don't watch movies with their head. They watch it with their gut. Like, you have to care. You have to really want chief Brody to catch the shark.
Speaker 2 You have to really want Dorothy to make it out of Oz. Otherwise, you're just curious as opposed to investing. Well, politics works the same way. You know that old phrase, they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care? You have to move them.
Speaker 2 And that means you've gotta locate where they are emotionally, figure out the key, strings to pull to get them where you want them to be, and then pull them. And it's storytelling. Like everything else in the world, it's storytelling. And it's stunning to me how many, members of congress are crappy storytellers. I just don't I don't understand it in any way because I think it's so fundamental.
Speaker 2 Not only to getting elected, but to to swaying other members so that you can get things passed and and and make a difference in the world. You have to tell the story. And, when Biden is allowed to do that, like the state of the union, It's a master class. Well, so we created this. And when, when we set the stage for him properly, he delivers.
Speaker 2 1 of the things
Speaker 0 I mean, to that point, I I wanna ask you about more about storytelling and some techniques that maybe you have or tips you have, to improve written and spoken communications. Because so much I mean, we both know that we, you went to UCLA. I I just graduated from UCLA. And 1 of the things that I've noticed, especially in in sort of academic writing and the way that writing is taught is there's not much emphasis on that sort of that sort of storytelling aspect. It's very, you know, analytical, and it gets it's very sort of ivory.
Speaker 0 What tips do you have to to get people to sort of get to that point of improving storytelling and and hooking people in?
Speaker 2 Yeah. You start with, what we call the fire in the basement or the shark in the water. What's the problem? Identify what is the thing how has nature been knocked out of balance, And why does that matter? And then who it's affecting so that we understand literally, Chrissy Watkins just got eaten by a shark.
Speaker 2 Right? Or Dorothy's house just got picked up by a tornado. We understand what the problem is. Yeah. And now we are invested in the solution of that problem.
Speaker 2 Right. Right. And that's storytelling. Yeah.
Speaker 1 So in in terms of not just storytelling, but in terms of, I would say, long term planning. I think I have observed on things like Roe, Dobbs, IVF, the courts. The Republicans are better at that. I mean, there's also a a stereotype that they're better at messaging, and and you mentioned that they are lockstep. Once they get a message, they stick with it.
Speaker 1 But let's talk about the sort of the long term planning. And do you think that it's true that the Republicans are doing a better job and the Democrats need to start focusing on some of the long term consequences and how to get to where they need to be, you know, whether it is a national, abortion protection or whatever.
Speaker 2 I do. I think that Republicans, are better suited to messaging because I don't think they're terribly creative. And so when they hear build a wall, they don't look for something better. They just say, oh, build a wall. Great.
Speaker 2 And they go off and do it. Whereas, Democrats always think they can come up with something better on their own. And so you give them a piece of messaging, and they think, oh, let me put my own personal spin on this. And they water it down, and they fuck it up completely. But it's it's an expression of their creativity, so I can't get too angry at it.
Speaker 2 I just wish they wouldn't do it. But anyway, in answer to your larger question, the percentage of Americans that really understand how American politics work is stunningly low. Like, stunningly low. So it is tough to get big picture ideas past Americans. The day after January 6th, I wrote to my 85, sitting members of the house and senate that I do messaging for.
Speaker 2 And I said to them, please do not call it a coup. Do not call it an insurrection. No 1 in America can get their brains around that idea. It is a meaningless concept to people. Just call it a crime.
Speaker 2 Everybody knows what that is. Everybody knows what a workplace lockdown is. Everybody knows that if you're in your office and a crowd of crazy people are coming and you have to barricade the door with a 300 pound safe, which happened on January 6th, everybody knows that's bad. Everybody knows trespassing's bad. Everybody knows assault to police officer's bad.
Speaker 2 Everybody knows defacing public property's bad. Just call it a crime. People can get that. People can understand that. It's a small picture idea.
Speaker 2 But what do Democrats do? We go out. We start doing the rhetoric about the tent of democracy and, you know, all of our bullshit, which is totally true, but which is horrible politics. Or you have to meet people where they live. You cannot expect them to rise to your level of understanding of government just like you can't expect them to rise to your level of empathy.
Speaker 2 You just can't. All you're gonna do is condescend and make them feel dumb, which is gonna make them feel resentful. So that's a big frame Yeah. For taking every issue and boiling it down to its essence. If I were running against someone, let me pull a name out of that air, Ted Cruz, and I want to talk about government mandated pregnancy.
Speaker 2 What I would say is, listen. This is a this is a hard 1. This is an issue on which I completely respect the sincerity of people who disagree with me. If you think life begins at the moment of conception, of course, you're against abortion. How dare you not be?
Speaker 2 We disagree about that. But I'm not gonna question your sincerity. And if my 20 year old unmarried niece were were pregnant, I don't know what advice I would give her. I really don't. All I know is I don't want Ted Cruz coming into her bedroom and making that decision for her.
Speaker 2 That's a really specific visual idea. Ted Cruz standing at the foot of that woman's bed. Right? And if I were debating let me pull the name out up in there, Ted Cruz, about this issue. I would say, Ted, I need you to take my 90 seconds on this 1 because I don't understand it as policy.
Speaker 2 I I just don't get it. How does government manual then pregnancy work? Let's go back to my, my 20 year old unmarried niece. She's crap. K?
Speaker 2 Too late to have a conversation with her about abstinence. And she's not equipped on any level to have this baby. But, the state of Texas and the United States government needs her to have this baby. Can't run it. So, so I need you to tell me how is government mandated pregnancy going to work?
Speaker 2 Okay? If she tries to leave the state of Texas, are we going to stop her at the floor? Is that what the policy says? Are we gonna have a group of police following around young women and tracking their menstrual cycles? Is that how this is gonna work?
Speaker 2 So are we creating a new layer of police bureaucracy? If so, how are we paying for it? How many and if we're paying for it, how many bridges aren't we gonna build? How many schools aren't we gonna build? Which is ironic because the kids can move to school.
Speaker 2 Oh, okay. So you're saying we're not gonna create a new level of this bureaucracy. We're gonna take existing police and pull them out of the line and have them follow young women to make sure they don't get the health care that they seek. Okay. How many murders aren't they going to investigate?
Speaker 2 Because they're following my niece around. How many robberies aren't they gonna prevent? Tell me how this is going to work. And then Ted Cruz would say, well, the same thing you have lot well, the place I didn't even know, Ted. I didn't ask you to defend it.
Speaker 2 I asked you to explain it. As a policy, if you're a senator, you know, it's not just you can't do this. It's what's the policy? How will we be paying for the enactment of that policy? Over the road of the road now of government mandated pregnancy.
Speaker 2 Ted, what's in the policy? What's in the law that you would support? Because I can say what's in the law that I would support. I could write it for you right now, and I can defend it. Go ahead, Ted.
Speaker 2 Take my 90 seconds. What what are you gonna say?
Speaker 1 I I hesitate to, give this example now because but I I'd be curious as to whether you think I did the right thing. When I was offered the job of solicitor general of the state of Illinois, I put a a caveat on it, which was that I would not argue any case, should it ever happen, that limited abortion rights in Illinois. And my boss, who was a very observant Catholic, was definitely against abortion. And then I made it my mission to try to change his mind. And when I finally came up with with the help of Sarah Weddington, who had argued, Roe and had been an adviser to president Carter after that, I argued that his daughter had been raped.
Speaker 1 And he said, well, there's a a thing that Catholics allow immediately after that wouldn't be considered abortion. I said, she was raped and knocked unconscious and left until after that period of time arose. And she was, what would you do for your own daughter? And that was what got him was his picturing his daughter pregnant through rape and not able to get whatever the procedure was that would be within Catholic, theology. And he, he changed his view at least as to what he would impose on other people.
Speaker 1 And was that the kind of thing that that gets to people it gets to him feeling it as a a real risk to himself?
Speaker 2 I think in that case, it's absolutely the right way to argue it because you're talking 1 1 to 1. But if you're talking 1 to above 5,000, you know, okay, Then I would make the the approach that's less about empathy and more about policy. Because if you wanna reach conservatives, you don't actually get them on the level of empathy. It's not that they lack empathy. They have empathy.
Speaker 2 It's in a hierarchy of values. It's just lower for them. So the arguments that work with the conservative are about the robustness of the community as a whole. So if I were in a room with 5,000 conservatives, I would make the arguments I just made about explain to me how it works. I'm open to it.
Speaker 2 Just tell me how it works. Like, what does it look like? How are we paying for it? What are the cops doing? What's the rule?
Speaker 2 If she won't eat, are we force feeding her? If she keeps trying to leave the house to get to the doctor, are we chaining her to the bed? What what is it gonna say in the law? You have to lay that stuff out. So that would be where I'd start.
Speaker 2 And then I'd say, by the way, did you know that, 60% of the women in America who seek abortion already have a kid? Did you know that? Because it just so happens these are not these are not, embryo killing monsters. They're mothers who wanna do a better job with the kid they already have. So knowing that and knowing that women who are denied an abortion in America are 4 times more likely to slip below the poverty line, What are we gonna do with all these bombs and all these scams?
Speaker 2 I'm not gonna let them starve from the streets. It's not America. Okay. Where's the money? To take care of these moms?
Speaker 2 Who just wanted to be better moms in the first place? How's it gonna work? Take me through it. If you can convince me that it worked, okay, I'm in. Yeah.
Speaker 2 Who's got a who's got a plan? Because I guarantee you the 5,000 people won't have 1. There is no plan. And, by the way, can we talk about guns for a second? Yeah.
Speaker 2 That okay? Yes. Yes. Okay. There's a similar argument to the All Americans.
Speaker 2 On what values mean the most to them? Freedom is number 1, and it's not close. Freedom Outpolls Justice as a Virtue in America by 22 points, which will come as no shock to any African American who for 100 of years has been saying justice, justice, and white Americans are saying, well, yeah, justice. It's important. But what I really want is the freedom, say stupid shit, and not be called the right.
Speaker 2 K? The second that guns stopped being a safety issue and started being a freedom issue, it was over. You could walk into Sandy Hook and shoot 20 kids, and it didn't change the law. Right? In the same way that when masks and vaccines stopped being a health issue and started being a free it started being a freedom issue, everything got really, really weird.
Speaker 2 Right? Okay. So when you are talking to a roomful of conservatives about guns, all they're thinking about is freedom. Democrats never get this. These people are afraid you're coming to take their guns.
Speaker 2 They keep saying it over and over again. Trump keeps repeating it over and over again. It's unbelievably untrue, but that's what they believe. Okay? So if I were running for office against let me pull the name out of thin air.
Speaker 2 Ted Cruz, and I was in a room full of Texas Republicans, What I would say to them about guns is, you people are not the problem. You are responsible gun owners. You practice gun discipline. You train. You teach your kids the rules.
Speaker 2 You stow your weapons safely. I'm not worried about you. Own 10 gun. Own 20. Own 50.
Speaker 2 God bless you. Where I need your help is with people who are not responsible gun owners, who don't practice gun discipline, because those people can get your kid killed in a school, in a mall, in a parking lot, in a in a in a church, in a movie theater. And before a political hack, like my opponent, Ted Cruz, tells you that we have no common ground on this issue, use your common sense. As Texans, we agree on a law. You can't own a tank.
Speaker 2 We all agree on that. You cannot own a surface to air missile. We all agree on that. Do you wanna live in a world where Ted Cruz owns a surface to air missile? I fucking don't.
Speaker 2 The guy lives in a flight path. Guess what else we all agree on? We all agree on violent history checks. And when I say all of us, I mean 95% of America, including 73% of, the NRA. So don't let anyone tell you that we have no common ground here.
Speaker 2 We have a lot of common ground here. Let's start there and build out. Who's not gonna vote for that guy? Right. Right.
Speaker 2 Well Right? I'm gonna pull
Speaker 0 the name out of thin air and hope that Colin Allred is listening to you right now because he is the, opponent against Ted Cruz. And I hope that he, takes this advice so that you're talking to him because, I mean, you had such great advice, and I know we're running short on time. So we have 1 last question that we usually end the podcast because it is intergenerational. And, you know, what is your advice to young people, who might be thinking about going into writing, politics, communication?
Speaker 2 What do you what do
Speaker 0 you have to say to them?
Speaker 2 When I was, a kid and going through college, I was a I was a an okay student. I wasn't an amazing student. If a if a subject inspired me, I was kind of the best person in the class. And if the subject did inspire me, I did enough not to embarrass us. But then I got out in the real world, and I very quickly realized, you know, if I wanted to become a writer sorry about that.
Speaker 2 See what my favorite. Go on. Yes. I very quickly realized I'm not more talented than the people I'm competing with. My only remedy is to outwork them.
Speaker 2 There are so many variables that will affect your ability to make a living, whichever field you go into. Health of our economy, health of your particular industry, in my case, you know, did the DVD market flatten, superheroes become more superhero movies become more important than anything else? Else. Do do, studios merge, giving you less places where you can work. So many variables over which you have a little control.
Speaker 2 There's 1 variable over which you have control, which is your willingness to work. So you better maximize that variable. I'm up at 8 and I'm working and I eat at 1 and I'm back at my desk at 1:15 and I go until 6 and I don't surf the web and I don't try to find ex girlfriends on Facebook. I don't do anything but work. And it's because there are mountain tops I'm trying to get to.
Speaker 2 I can see them from here, but I'm not there yet and only work will get me there. And so I grind. I treat every single meeting I go into like it's an audition. I pretend even if it's someone I've known for 20 years and I made 2 movies with them. I pretend it's a meeting with someone I've never met before.
Speaker 2 And this is my chance to make a first impression. And that first impression should be you're never gonna meet a writer who is harder working, more collegial, more professional, more open to notes, and with less ego. I'm always selling in that way. And I can tell you that the people who listen to this, if they approach their work in that way, if they just pretend every single day that they are a mechanic and they are getting in the way and doing their job, they'll be fine. Because if you were a mechanic, you wouldn't go to Starbucks for 2 hours and wait for your muse to land on your shoulder and say, fix the carburetor.
Speaker 2 You would just fix the carburetor. That's what we are. Screen owners are mechanics. 95% of what we do is problem solve. And if you treat it like work, you'll never freeze.
Speaker 0 Wow. That is amazing.
Speaker 1 1 of our most amazing episodes, and we had so many more questions that I hope that you will agree to come back. We wanna Tomorrow. AI Tomorrow. For sure.
Speaker 2 Let's go.
Speaker 1 Well, we might. I mean, this is we'll schedule something. There's just something to talk about
Speaker 2 because I I just went through the writers guild strike and and, of course, the stag strike. Yeah. And in my business, we may have a Teamsters and I ATSI strike, and I did a whole podcast about, those strikes, and I would love to talk about the American labor movement and and what it references.
Speaker 0 We had that was our that was our last section.
Speaker 1 And not only that, but I have a personal interest because the strike was led by Fran Drescher, who in the early 2000, I started watching The Nanny for the first time. And I I it made me so happy. I watched it right before bed, and I would go to bed laughing and happy, the double entendres. And I I I totally admired her as an actor and now as a union leader. And so I I Yes.
Speaker 1 We really have to have you back to talk about Fran Drescher and AI. So Let's do it. Absolutely. Very much. This was great.
Speaker 2 It was a privilege. Thank you, guys.
Speaker 0 We appreciate it. Thank you.
Speaker 1 Thanks for the tour of the Beverly Hills.
Speaker 2 Yes. See you later. Bye.
Speaker 0 Thanks. Bye bye.
Speaker 2 Jill, I'm
Speaker 1 talking to god, Victor. That was the best episode ever. I love Billy Ray. He is a genius. I want every Democratic candidate for any office to follow his advice.
Speaker 1 And just even just listening to this podcast will give people ideas about how to reach the audience, how to make them care, how to make them feel and understand. He was he's brilliant. He's just a great communicator.
Speaker 0 And and as he was saying all that stuff, if we had more time, I would have raised the fact that, you know, as you I was listening to the State of the Union, 1 of the things I couldn't help but sort of notice is that president Biden did a lot of what he said in terms of reframing the conversation. I mean, he took issues that traditionally Republicans ran on and made it into an issue that appeals to all, you know, people. I mean, he he reframed the immigration thing into safety and and that this is, you know, appeals to freedom, and he he reframed reproductive rights to freedom. And I just thought, you know, if he could if if we could get this sort of message out there, this podcast to as many people as possible, it you know, it's it's worth listening to. And I hope that he's advising as many candidates as he possibly can, but we need him to write a book.
Speaker 0 We need him to do something where it's just like regular lessons with Billy on communication. I mean, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 Absolutely. And, you know, 1 thing he said was like, oh my god. Does he know that I have a hashtag that says, say this, not that? When he was talking about don't call it insurrection because people don't get that. Call it a crime.
Speaker 1 And it just it resonated. I'm gonna post that on my hashtag say this, not that, because I think that is true. People don't care. Insurrection. Oh, that's far away.
Speaker 1 Crime. Oh, yeah. I'm afraid of crime. So he was brilliant. I I hope everyone enjoys this episode as much as we did and that they will make other not make, but suggest to other people that they listen to this episode and that they send it to their member of congress who they want to get reelected.
Speaker 0 Yes. And Billy has such a unique role into this because he it does come from that sort of as I was hearing him talk about how he transfers his writing in Hollywood and for filmmaking into politics. I mean, that sort of emotional visceral reaction is not something that we see much from Democrats. And 1 of the things I I've noticed just being in the sort of democratic calm space is that when people send talking points, for instance, it's very much facts and figures. That's 62% of the country believes on this.
Speaker 0 It's, you know, you know, this is, how much public support we have. And, you know, that's that's all nice, but it doesn't appeal to emotions. It it only appeals to, you know, one's logic and 1 sense of reason. But if you wanna convince people and get to get people to actually feel and absorb the things sort of like we're writing about for the State of the Union, you have to appeal to emotion and you have to appeal to, you know, different frames and different narratives. And that's what I just heard from Billy, last time when I was with him at the Jewish Shelley and again today, and it's just incredible.
Speaker 0 So I hope everyone thinks long and hard about how they can change the frame and and and take on different motions and narratives as they're crafting messages.
Speaker 1 So 1 other thing I wanna talk about before we close this episode is you are now back in Illinois. You have left UCLA. You have taken your last class. Your graduation ceremony is not till June, but you are officially a college graduate. We met when you had just graduated high school, and the time really flew.
Speaker 1 But let's let's talk about and celebrate your finishing college.
Speaker 0 Jill, we'll have to get, a meal, this week when when, and and and do a proper celebration that we can post on Twitter saying that we both got together. No. But it's so surreal. I mean, like you said, I we met 4 years ago, literally. I think it was around this time I DM ed you on Twitter saying, you know, we're both running to become delegates and, would love to get to know you.
Speaker 0 And then we just started doing a podcast a few months later in June of 2020. So it's about to be 4 years of this podcast, too. But, you know, it feels surreal to say that I'm, you know, no longer a student. I'm an alumni now. I'm, in the real world as they say.
Speaker 0 I don't know. It's it's all just so incredible, and and I don't know. It's been a it's been a interesting 4 years, from the pandemic to a continued pandemic. Once I got to college, it was masked, and then Omicron hit in 20 21. And that was, another experience, and then there was a huge strike at UCLA and the UC system, which then sent people, to remote classes for the last few weeks of the quarter.
Speaker 0 And then, you know, every other thing from, you know, Ukraine war to the Middle East stuff. I mean, it's been a really crazy ride, but, I'm glad to have survived. And I know a lot of my friends are also, you know, it's a bittersweet feeling, I think. And and I don't know if you still feel that moment when you got done with school. It's sort of like, no.
Speaker 0 What what do I do now with so much free time? No classes. No no nothing really for the next week at least.
Speaker 1 Well, we're gonna put off the discussion about what's next for you until maybe next week. We'll have that discussion. But, Brito, I just wanted to say, you were a stellar student. You were like he was a straight a student, guys, literally, for every single class. And in addition, he did this podcast and another podcast and appeared on MSNBC, all while being a really great student.
Speaker 1 So, congratulations. You are a marvel and a model for all young students. And for young voters, follow Victor's advice and register and vote. Know what you're doing. Pay attention.
Speaker 1 Learn about the issues. Pick 1 you really care about. That was advice from 1 of our other guests. Pick 1 issue you care about and learn what it what you need to know to persuade others to vote democratic, because we're assuming most of our listeners are democratic, but to vote the way you want them to vote based on the 1 thing that you are really passionate about. If you're really smart like Victor you can take on guns and climate and reproductive rights and whatever else you feel like but at least 1 that you feel confident you could persuade others on.
Speaker 2 And if you could
Speaker 0 quickly point out 1 thing that I mean to emphasize something about what Billy said at the end, you know, you mentioned that I I I did well in my classes. I think part of the reason why I did the main reason why I did 1 of my classes because I chose something that I actually liked. I initially started off as a polysem major, and I found it too boring, but I could have stuck to that route and and attended these theoretical classes. But then I switched to a major that I actually really did like, and I feel like it didn't feel like work. I mean, as much as I hated writing some papers, at the end of the day, I liked what I was doing.
Speaker 0 And so it made the process more enjoyable. And I would say for anyone out there, I mean, the 1 thing I would say is just, you know, find a major that you like doing, and it makes it so much easier. It really does.
Speaker 1 It it's really interesting because I'm working on a children's
Speaker 2 Yeah.
Speaker 1 Book right now, and it's sort of career advice. And 1 of my points in the book is to follow your passion, to do something that you really like and to not, you know, okay. You pick something your 1st year of college, and then you go, oh, that may not be the best thing for me. Try another. Don't be afraid to change.
Speaker 1 Take the challenge. So, yeah, I mean, again, Billy was great. I hope our audience liked it as much as you and I did, And we'll recommend it to other people.
Speaker 0 Yes. Thank you everyone for watching. We'll be back next week with another episode of iGen Politics. We hope you'll, follow us wherever you follow your podcast, whether it's Apple, Google, Spotify, wherever you listen we are there. Leave us a rating there as it helps others find this podcast as well and it helps us tremendously.
Speaker 0 You can also watch us on YouTube or you can also see, hashtag Jill's pin like the 1 that she's wearing today which is a camera for Billie Ray. So watch us on YouTube.
Speaker 1 Fashion movie camera.
Speaker 0 Movie camera.
Speaker 2 Movie camera.
Speaker 1 Yeah. Television. Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 0 And we are at youtube.com/politicon where you can like and subscribe us there and leave us a comment too. We love reading your comments. Thanks everyone for watching or listening, and we will see you next week. Thanks, everyone.