Summary FULL INTERVIEW: Dr Jordan Peterson and Piers Morgan break down Israel-Hamas war (Youtube) www.youtube.com
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Piers Morgan Working appears more than offensive. I'm in Los Angeles this week and to tonight sit down with 1 of the world's greatest thinkers, Dr Jordan Peterson. Just a few weeks ago, we didn't an interview and proved very popular. But that was before the events of October the seventh. And on October the seventh.
Piers Morgan For mass committed of course, 1 of the world's worst modern terror attacks on the people of Israel. And that day, Jordan Peterson tweeted it, give them hell, Netanyahu enough is enough. What do he mean by that? What is enough in terms of Israel's response, does he regret tweeting that? Well I asked him all these questions in a very wide ranging new interview?
Piers Morgan And I explained to him that I've honestly had a lot of moral quan since this conflict began since the war started. I don't know what a proportionate response is to what her hamas did that day. I don't know if there is such a thing as a proportionate response to the atrocities which Unfold on the people of Israel. But I do know that the people of Gaza, the innocent Palestinians who live in Gaza, who've been under bombardment now for many weeks and seen thousands of children, Get killed. I know that they believe they are living through hell.
Piers Morgan So tonight, I sit down with Jordan Peterson to ask him some difficult questions about a very very difficult issue. What I'm joined now by Doctor Jordan Peterson jordan great to have you back on the program. A lot has happened since you were last on just a few weeks ago. I want to start by saying that I I'm wrestling with a lot of moral quan about this war. And I'm hoping that through our conversation today, we might get to at least have some clarity about the moral quan and see if we can work out what we should be thinking about this because I think it's very complicated and it's got to be nuanced this conversation.
Piers Morgan Do you feel any moral quan about it?
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well, I don't think you can have a war without moral quan. I mean, a war is the consequence of an un unfavorable moral quan. And so it's not surprising that the conversation surrounding the war is full of moral quan because if if it was straightforward and simple and if there was an easy path forward, then there wouldn't be a war. And so Mean, I'm I can tell you what I think is going on to the degree that you can reduce it to something quickly inexplicable. I think Iran is desperate because of the tenuous hold on power that the Mall is now have in iran given their own citizens rebellion.
Dr. Jordan Peterson I think they see the Accord, which were the most on significant step forward towards peace in the Middle East for like 75 years. They see the Accord as a existential threat. This is a last ditch attempt by the Iranian mu to use the Islam against Jews story to prop up their own dismal reign. And so they rattled the chain of their Hamas puppets and said, provoke and they did, and their hope is that the Israeli response will be so overwhelming that The Arab world turns against them and maybe even the people who might be inclined to know be swayed by a victim narrative in the west and that the Abraham accord have fall apart and and that'll be the end of that. And that could happen.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And I'm hoping it won't because I think the Abraham accord were you know what it it's irritating to me for whatever you, you know, utility that is is that I think I know in so insofar as you can know such things that Saudi Arabia would have signed the Accord 2 years ago if Biden would have moved a little bit more forthright on it And I think the reason that He didn't and the Democrats didn't was because they didn't wanna give Trump any credit for anything that he had detained in his administration. And I think all of that is a appalling. And you know, I see this story of Muslim against jew being put forward in this prop district manner. And I think, well, the Muslim World has to make a choice too because It doesn't look to me like their proper champions are is the government in Iran. You know, and and and and it's not like the saudi don't have their flaws and perhaps the rest of the arab governmental structures, but the The Islam world should move in the direction of the Accord.
Dr. Jordan Peterson That would be great for everyone. We could have a real peace. We could have something approximating a union of the Abrahamic people and I think the accord was named extraordinarily well. Or we could have what we've had for the last 75 years with the Palestinians as perpetual cannon fodder, you know, at the back and call of those for whom having them be can Fodder is useful. The And so, yeah, well, there's just moral quantities everywhere there.
Dr. Jordan Peterson It's a minefield field, but that's what I think is the the fundamental reality of the current situation. It's a propaganda war and there's a lot of stake.
Piers Morgan On October the seventh, Hamas obviously committed a terror attack of appalling magnitude. Where were you when you first heard about it? What was your instant feeling about it,
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well, my instant feeling was to be sick by it, you know it hasn't been that long since I was in Jerusalem. And so it was a little closer to me than it might have otherwise been. I'm also more sensitive. To any signs of anti semitic catastrophe from studying the holocaust for the length of time that I did and I've always regarded Jews as the canary and the coal mine. And I think the reason that the Jews are the canary and the coal mine is because they're a successful minority.
Dr. Jordan Peterson You know, and if if a culture can tolerate a successful minority, it's pretty damn robust and it's not very resent. And as soon as a culture starts to get resent, the Jews make an easy target because there are minority and so that's an easy target to begin with. But then there, the minority that has the to be successful. And that really brings the resent pull out of the rat holes. And I've seen a rise in semitism online over the last, 3 years.
Dr. Jordan Peterson That's just stunning to behold on the right end on the left but jointly. And then... Well, so I was sick by it, but then I was also immediately suspicious of Iran's rule. And I mean, that doesn't require any particular per cassidy on my part. I think it's quite obvious.
Dr. Jordan Peterson But But I... That also opens up the the rat nest of of the maneuvering the political maneuvering around the Courts because You know, I was very ill when the Abraham accord were signed in, I couldn't or hadn't paid much attention. And when I sort of recovered my ability to see again. I saw that this remarkable peace process had taken place. And I could not understand for the life of me why it wasn't trumpet it on the front page of every newspaper across the world.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And I also think that Trump's team should have got a nobel peace prize for it. I I cannot see how you can possibly make a counter argument to that for all of Trump's flaws and for his administration's flaws, this was a major accomplishment. And yet, and I know the saudi were behind it Know, they didn't sign it, but it wouldn't have gone forward without their nod and wink. And I know I believe that if Biden would have taken the opportunity and been a bit magna in his response to Trump, which he could have been instead of thinking of him as Satan himself, that he could have entice the saudi into a peace of accord. And we wouldn't be in this damn situation now.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And now we're playing it out the hard way, you know, because the iranians could win the propaganda war and they've got god only knows how many agents they have in the west, you know? Promoting the kind of social upheaval that we've seen on the streets in the last few weeks. And so the narrative could go either way, but I'm rooting hard for the For the Abraham accord Sin. And I Hope they Have The Courage Of Their convictions And I Hope they Can See that their way forward is the most appropriate way forward. For the good of the Muslim world or what are we gonna stay in some fourteenth century conflict between the fundamentalist Muslim World and and the Jews, Jesus.
Dr. Jordan Peterson That sounds, you know, we've had enough of that. Haven't we... You'd think?
Piers Morgan I asked Ben shapiro, what is a proportionate response to what happened in October south. And he said there isn't 1 that there is no proportionate response and there shouldn't be. I mean, that in itself, and I asked if they Ram. When I interviewed him at the weekend, the same question and he was basically infer the same, but he also said that you know, he would happily put the heads of a 100 ham hamas leaders on stakes along the border as a message to people. Not to commit this act.
Piers Morgan I thought that was a sort of medieval barbaric response to medieval barb, and that I for an I tooth for tooth is not the solution. I also believe that Israel has a fundamental right, not just to defend itself up after what happened, But has a duty to protect its people, and it has to take that duty obviously, very seriously after But if if your mission statement, as they've made clear is to eliminate hamas completely and Hamas live the in gaza are surrounded, by civilians among civilians. You can only do that. You can only get rid of a mass with massive civilian casualties.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Mh.
Piers Morgan And that's where I have this moral quan about Mh. How much is too much. Well, it does israel get a like sense to do whatever it wants to eliminate hamas or should there be a limit? And if so, what is that limit
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well, I don't think israel will have a license to do whatever it wants because what will happen inevitably and I I think... If I was an iranian prop, I would be counting on this, Let's imagine that Israel moves against Thomas hamas with its usual effectiveness. And they start winning, you know, in a serious way and the casualties mount. Well, it's a lot easier to take a victim appreciation stance against a power that's clearly winning. So Israel can't win without acc losses along the way because the more they manifest their military superiority The easier it's going to be for those who cast the Palestinians as victims to hold to gain the moral upper hand.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And so that doesn't mean I know what israel should do because I wish I had that wisdom. But what I would like to see happen in the best of all possible worlds, perhaps would be for the signing of the Accord to say to Israel privately first, were not bud. And then maybe... And then maybe to take a foray into the public and say that It would be lovely to see Saudi Arabia come out and say, you know, we're gonna continue the Abraham peace accord process. And Then Israel could say, well, if The Abraham accord holds, and we have the probability of expanding it, we can take the risk of not being so devastating in our response to Hamas and they could back off.
Dr. Jordan Peterson But because there'd be there'd be a counter victory in it for them. And so as far like, I can't see a better pathway forward than that. And I think that's a potentially realistic pathway. Especially because that would also have the side benefit of not allowing your iran to prevail, So that's that's the best I can do on on how this might proceed in the in the most optimistic possible way. I don't know if that's good enough or not.
Piers Morgan I don't october the seventh, you tweeted, give them hell Netanyahu enough. Yep. Is enough and you got some blow back for that as everybody. Yeah. What?
Piers Morgan So is anything about this. Over Were you surprised by the scale of the blow back? Do you wish you'd phrase that tweet differently? Do you have any? Regrets about?
Piers Morgan Well.
Dr. Jordan Peterson You know, Twitter is a very complicated social media platform, and it's been difficult for me to learn how to use it. Wisely. And I'm not alone in that because it's difficult to be wise on Twitter. Now what I'm trying to learn is when a tweet is appropriate it and win a long form commentary is appropriate. And the rule I think is something like the higher the stakes, the more likely the bid the long form commentary is necessary.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And really, it would have been better had I... The because I did release a Youtube video where I explained some of what we already talked about sense Yeah yeah. And that was While that was received much better, Let's put it that way. But it also gave me a chance to elaborate my argument. And so what it highlighted for me.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And I felt you know, I was... Look. I wasn't I was very taken aback by what happened in in Israel. And I was also appalled because in my estimation, it was unnecessary. As I said, the Abraham accord could have been standard earlier, and maybe this wouldn't be necessary.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And so III allowed myself to express some sentiment at that point without providing context. And that wasn't as good as providing the context. And so... And I'm rethinking Twitter overall at the moment. About how to use it.
Dr. Jordan Peterson You know, Elon has taken off the character limit, and he's also made it possible to distribute video And so it no longer has to be a place where impulsive exchanges can can occur rapidly. And I'm trying to reconfigure how I use it. I'm much happier with the video. Now, I was upset because I had developed somewhat of a Muslim following on Youtube, and I was very happy about that. A lot of People on the Islamic side of the World Were watching My biblical lectures for example.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And you know when I've had extensive conversations with Muslims on my Youtube channel. And, you know, I burnt some of that up, and I'm not sure I did that. Well, I I would say, I'm certain. I didn't do that in the most productive manner. And so do I regret it?
Dr. Jordan Peterson It would have been better to do the long form? To to have done the long form to begin with, you know? And Twitter invites and rewards a certain amount of imp, and it wasn't I don't know. Pierce, I don't know if it's ever time for impulsive action, especially when the stakes are serious. You know?
Piers Morgan There's no doubt. For example, that what happened October the seventh was a form of hell for the victims and for their families. There's also no doubt that for many living in gaza for many innocent Palestinians as we know of the 2000000 dollars or so residents and citizens there. They I think it's more than half of child age, and many are very young children and many children are getting killed And as a father, I'm sure as like me. As a father, it is utterly heartbreak.
Piers Morgan To see so many thousands of children being killed. You have nothing obviously to do with this. Again, this this comes back to this moral contrary I have. Interesting, when you said enough is enough in that tweet, some people are already saying, even if they're very sympathetic to Israel's need, to take out hamas, they're looking at these fairly apocalyptic scenes in gaza and thinking enough as enough of that. In other words, the revenge is already far greater in terms of death toll than the original appalling terror.
Piers Morgan That is I have a moral contrary.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well, the question is, I suppose, and I don't have an answer to this. Terror is the most effective way of combating hamas military. And part of the answer to that is, Is The Military Era ratification Of Hamas Even possible. Because As I said, And We Can See it Unfolding in Real Time As Israel's More successful mil And the casualties mount, The Resistance to What They're doing Is Going To Grow. Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And So even if they could take out hamas mil momentarily, which isn't obvious given its inter penetration with the civilian population, it all of what's going to be played out is going to be played out on the military front. And we can see that in the rising tide, let's say, of demonstrations around the western world. And I would say those demonstrations are likely to get larger and more effective in precise proportion to Israel's success on the military side. And so then I would think, well, is there another way of restraining Hamas. And while that's again, that brings us back to the Abraham accord because they were the most promising thing this happened...
Dr. Jordan Peterson And in 7 decades. You know And I think it's it's easy to underestimate what a miracle they were. The people who formulated the Accord had to fight the state department. They went tried to introduce it under Obama to begin with. Right?
Dr. Jordan Peterson The ocean was, well, maybe we could we could start the peace process with Israel without putting the Palestinians first. And that had been off the table conceptually in the state department as far as I've been informed forever. And And then It was proposed during the Obama era And It was rejected And then It was proposed during the beginning of the Trump Era and rejected. But eventually, they They carried the day. And then they did do an end run.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And I think that actually put... I think that was actually good for for the typical Palestinian Because It Put a Tremendous Amount Of Pressure On The Palestinian Authorities Who Are Basically Tyrant Who Are More Than Willing To use Their Own Citizens As Cannon fodder It put a lot of pressure on them to actually do something moving moving towards a genuine piece, which is why how Iran, That's why Iran is so desperate. Sc the Accord Think. Of. So I Think The Way Through Ham Hamas, All Things Considered In The Medium To Long Run Is To Desperately Extend The Accord As Rapidly As Possible.
Dr. Jordan Peterson That's Not a Military victory. But You know, When you do this from arm,
Piers Morgan when you look at the full history of this conflict, the 7 decades of of Of conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Jonathan F is a very good respected Jewish journalist for the guardian in the U Uk. You in a very interesting column of day, saying know you could argue That both sides have just cause here. Mh. He said that is a leading Jewish comment.
Piers Morgan That historically, both sides have just cause. And that it's important to remember that. And that's why passions run so high. It's why people care so much and it's why racing to take sides is a mistake in this conflict. What do you think of that?
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well I think that you know, if there wasn't a lot to be said on both sides, then the conflict would drag on forever and be. Un unbelievable. You, I think at some point, you do something like cut the Go and knot, which I do think to some degree the Accord had begun to do. You know, I think it's... I don't think Israel's going away.
Dr. Jordan Peterson But I don't think the palace palace Palestine isn't going away either. And so those things have to be accepted. I... It looks to me like they have to be accepted as on the ground realities. Now the the problem I've seen continually.
Dr. Jordan Peterson I don't know is that it's been convenient to use the Palestinians as an irr to Israel in the west. And so the Palestinians have been held hostage. You know, the people who portray them as innocent victims presume that the Palestinians have been held hostage by The Jews, Let's say. But I would say the Palestinians have been held hostage even more effectively by their own leadership And By Those Who Are Perfectly Willing To Use Them As The Front man, the expendable Front Man Who we rotate Israel In the West. Well, you can't get peace under those circumstances.
Dr. Jordan Peterson You know? And so... Palestine is a reality that isn't going to go away and Israel-Hamas reality that isn't going to go away. And the Accord started to recognize that and there was move in the right direction and if that falls apart, we're going to be back to where we were. Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Years ago, except worse.
Piers Morgan The interesting moment for me came when Israel turned off, the power and the water. They just were able to do that to 2000000 people in gaza. They could turn off the internet. Power and it struck me that that was a very vivid reminder that Israel effectively controls. Gaza.
Piers Morgan It doesn't do so politically, but it does in reality and that for many young people in gaza, they know this, and they do feel that they've been living in a perpetual perpetual where their movement is controlled. Where they're access to basic things like water and energy and so on is controlled. And until they get the freedom that they crave, this can never get resolved.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well,
Piers Morgan But I also understand on the other side that the Israelis feel how can we give freedom to a place that is run by a terror group who are literally committed to the era Of Not Only Israel, But All Jewish People.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well You Laid Out You Laid Out? What are the 2 sets of valid counter claims. I mean, there's another complicating factor too. You know, you you said that you you know your moral back is up because of the continual toll in civilians in Palestine, especially among people who let's say weren't even born when they first came to power. Mh And so it's very difficult to look at that and see it as anything, but Unjust, But Then It Begs A Whole Other Set Of Questions Too.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Doesn't It It's Like, Well, If Your Government Is A Totalitarian And Band Of Armed Criminal Thugs what responsibility do you bear for that as as the subjected people? And, you know, it's not like I know the answer to that? And But you know, I see in My Own country in Canada that things are Slipping and sliding in all sorts of Pathological directions And People Are Letting it happen. And if you let that happen long enough, while things get very, very bad and they have got very, very bad at Palestine And The answer to whatever tyranny Israel might be exerting over the Palestinians isn't for the Palestinians to exert even more tyranny over themselves, especially not in concert with a third party like Iran, who's perfectly willing to sacrifice them, but at any point. And so now...
Dr. Jordan Peterson And then that question emerges well, what responsibility did the Palestinians bear? Well, then I think we start to touch on more meta physical issues is like, well, the Palestinians like all people bear the responsibility to live in truth and to stand up to Tyranny in their in their deeds their attention and their deeds and their actions. Because if you don't you pay for that and so do your children Right? And then so do your grandchildren so do your great grandchildren. And, you know, there seems to be something unjust in that in that why did the children suffer.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And the biblical answer that is always been while the children suffer for the sins of their fore fathers. And you might think, well, it's pretty unfair that the world is set up that way. It's like, Hey, it might be unfair, but it is set up that way, and it does beg the question. What... Responsibility to the people who are living under the thumb of totalitarian have for the fact that they're living under the thumb of Totalitarian.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And the answer isn't none. So this is where I'm a psychologist not a politician. I
Piers Morgan don't No. But it's... No I I think it's I think it's a really interesting question. It's also interesting question. To why why weren't arab states around gaza taking Palestinian refugees.
Piers Morgan I mean, these are the legitimate questions
Dr. Jordan Peterson Right? Well, there's a lot of there's a lot of chain and saber rattling about how tyra Israel is. And, of course, they're held to a very higher moral standard. But you know, the prison that is pal has walls on sides that aren't Israeli. So...
Dr. Jordan Peterson And that no 1 is... Certainly not The Progressive Will never talk about that. And that's partly because, you know, all the Oppressed people are equally morally virtuous. And so the fact that the Arabs won't take in The Palestinians You can't even bring that up because of course, the arabs themselves are victims of Western colonialism. Which is, you know, 1 of the most absurd propositions ever set forth by anyone about anything, but, you know, here we are, which and it is quite a miracle in some ways that that the the multi dimensional fact of Palestinian enslave isn't discussed in a much more forthright manner.
Dr. Jordan Peterson There's many people are building the walls that make Palestine into whatever prison it is. And Perhaps The Israelis Are Playing The Role. But No Means The Only Actors.
Piers Morgan Let's talk about the response of progressive. And in particular what's happening on student campuses, particularly in America. I've been struck by by 2 things. 1, the horrifying immediate response, not just in America, but when you saw mobs in Sydney Australia chanting gas the Jews when you saw huge protests by the Israeli embassy in Kensington West London, near where I live, all celebrating. This is all within hours of what happened on October the seventh.
Piers Morgan You saw similar scenes in America, So the gut reaction of many young people appear to be to be celebrating what had happened. And you even had some... It was a cornell professor who you know, was heard in public, saying how ex he was what happened. And still hasn't been fired. And these are people who've driven this canceled culture for many years now.
Piers Morgan Where if you use the wrong pronoun, they want you eradicated fired, shame abuse and so on. But here, If you celebrate the actions of a terrorist organization in killing 1500 people, you actually don't lose your job, students Who beamed pro mass rhetoric onto the building at George Washington University. They haven't lost their places at that university. So even for the most heinous possible thing that you could do, which might warrant cancellation, the people who've driven cancel culture, spared themselves.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well, this shows you how shallow the Op Op oppression narrative really is. Oppressed oppression narrative really is. Know, George or well famously said that typical middle class socialist didn't love the poor. They just hated the rich. And I think the Op oppressed the Sir Oppressed Narrative gives people moral license to identify the Op and To hate them resent with a good conscience.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Plus it's also extremely simple minded, you know? And this is 1 of the problems with with what's being taught universities and even much more broadly than that. Now. The notion is we can view all human social relations and the past itself through a meta marxist narrative that pro claims that there are Only Op oppression and victims And that All you Have To Do To Be Moral Is To be On the side Of The victim. Now the Shadow side of That is That Once you pro claim your moral superiority and you're on the side of the victim, well, number 1, you don't have to think anymore.
Dr. Jordan Peterson You just have to identify the 2 sets of players. And number 2, number 2, your moral without effort because all you have to do is feel sorry for the victims. And then consequence number 3 is The Op being intrinsically evil can be the target of everything that's resent and bitter and absolutely dreadful about you. Now, that's the standard narrative that's being taught on university campuses and the Palestinians play the role of victim. And so You can't argue against the Palestinian cause, let's say, if if you were inclined to, without simultaneously having to face the weight Of Every single person who's Adopted The Op Oppressed Narrative, Up ending That And There's no Way The University Not in not it's not the state they're in now.
Dr. Jordan Peterson There's no way that's going fly. And so and so we see exactly what happened. But the narrative already in place. All oppressed people are innocent and virtuous victims. Well, so then when something like this happens and you see the Palestinian victims rise up against their evil Jewish overlords, then it's time for celebration.
Dr. Jordan Peterson You know, and we forget entirely that The evil Jewish over overlords story was the same story that the Germans used so successfully. And we also forget and this is very interested in relationship to Iran. I was reading a book by Van Va yesterday about turn of the Century Vienna just at the end of the Austrian Hungarian empire, and the dawning of the movements that eventually morph into Nazis in Germany. And 1 of the things Va pointed out was that, you know, if you're a corrupt op pressing psycho path whose hell bent on exploiting the population and you wanna deflect that the Jews make a constant positive universal target, right? Because they tend to be disproportionately successful and you can just say, well, you I'm not the op oppressive here.
Dr. Jordan Peterson It's those successful Jews and that's being played out. Now. That's that's The Guys, That's The Disguise Of Left wing anti semitism.
Piers Morgan I mean, Fight
Dr. Jordan Peterson The Jews. We Just Love Their Enemies.
Piers Morgan Right I mean, the The Anti semitic. Response in the last 3 weeks has been actually quite terrifying to watch. I've got Jewish friends who are literally living in real fear. Now. Some of whom were in Israel at the time and thought, well, the world will rally behind us and actually very quickly rear lies that many cases that wasn't the case.
Piers Morgan In fact, the complete opposite. And when you saw these scenes in Dag lies at the airport with a mob, literally charging around, trying to find any Jewish passengers they could find. And it was I mean, horrendous, but also if you're Jewish, this is utterly terrifying and must take you right back to Nazi Germany, World War 2 the Holocaust. This never again, it is beginning to happen again.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well, I Think We Could Be hardened in that regard by The counter position, Though Too. I mean, I would say, the the reasonable majority in the western world didn't take that stance still and quite forthright I mean, even my prime minister Justin Trudeau, who virtually never says a true word in his life or Makes a His his actions are con combinations of false gestures even. You know, he was... He came out with a pretty forthright statement. D crying what had happened on the Hamas side.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And that has characterized the leadership of the West in general and so I can certainly understand why the tiny minority of Jews that do exist in the world are terrified about what's happening you know, it it... There's there's no reason for catastrophic alarm. It's... You you know what I mean. It it doesn't look to me like this is going to...
Dr. Jordan Peterson Viral out of Control. And I'm not even so certain That in The medium to long run, It's gonna be the worst possible thing because You know too the Other thing That happened is that viral a lot of the false moral disguise of the progressive types was exposed in a radical way in the last few weeks. I mean, Harvard, For example, Just took a beating. You know I mean, first of all Harvard was Ranked dead last by fire in terms of its support for free speech. And then it was 32 different Harvard groups came out essentially in support of Hamas.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Yeah. And then a whole variety of Ceos said they wouldn't Except Harvard Degree As A hiring Criteria. And Larry Summers Came Out And Said, you know the previous President of Harvard That The Institution Had Become So Corrupt That It wasn't Salvage. You know the White House Press Secretary d the actions Of The squad who were supporting the Hamas Protests. You know, So we're seeing Cracks on the Progressive side because Of this That Haven't been evident before.
Dr. Jordan Peterson You know, and and Biden himself Came Out and Talked about how important it was to push forward with the Accord, which was something, you know I wish he would have done 2 years ago, but better late than ever. So I can understand why there's tremendous fear and uncertainty, but I certainly wouldn't say that all the news is bad.
Piers Morgan Talk about social media from... There's no doubt that the kind of tribalism that we see in modern society fueled by social media has probably never been worse than I've seen it in the last 3 weeks. A constant barrage of often completely fake imagery, videos, claims, counter claims from both sides, but it's just a barrage. And I've been really quite shocked by just the scale of it. And how little of it appears to even have a sem of of truth about it.
Piers Morgan Well we do... What do we do about that?
Dr. Jordan Peterson Oh Well, that highlights that highlights a very pronounced danger. So you in the last 15 years, we've erected virtual per perception systems. And virtual systems virtual systems of representing reality. Now, if your system of representing reality is not in accordance with reality, you're delusional. And right technically, that's what a delusion is.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And you're gonna run into trouble when you try to act in your fantasy and run into the world. Well, these virtual worlds that we've erected on top of the real world don't run by the same principles as the real world. And that makes them delusional. And that delusional element is affecting us very badly in a couple of ways. I just heard Jonathan Height this morning talk about.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Some Of The Research He's Reviewing In His New book. He Shows Very Clearly That Young Liberal women, The Probability The Young Liberal Woman who saturate her life with social media Has a mental illness is more than 50 percent That's how bad it's got. Yeah. It's really bad. Her But that's not the only thing that's going on.
Dr. Jordan Peterson You see the other thing I've been watching, and this is really quite frightening to me is that The problem with online 1 of the problems with online communication is it dis inhibits the narcissist assists and the psycho paths. And the reason for that is that they can circumvent the normal control systems that obtain in face to face interaction.
Piers Morgan Yes.
Dr. Jordan Peterson You know and? In face to face interaction, there's things you will not say or do because you will be held responsible and maybe immediately. You can say whatever the hell you want online, and you can get away with it too. And maybe even be rewarded for it. And so we have You just think about the amount of criminality and quasi criminality online.
Dr. Jordan Peterson 35 percent of Internet traffic is porn. And it isn't nice guys that are running that. Let's put it that way. There's an immense amount of online criminality. Like, most people are targeted by online criminals on a pretty regular basis.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And then we just have the run of the mill narcissistic psycho pass. Who generate anonymous troll demon accounts who who are spreading misery and sadistic hate as fast as they possibly can and there's no barriers whatsoever to them doing that. And so then when something does happen that's contentious, say, the sadistic psycho paths just make hay out of that. Right? They're spreading in their misery as rapidly as they possible possibly can For The Laws and The Laws And To Delight in other People's suffering.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And The Social media companies they are naive Enough Not To Regulate that. Now Regulating it's difficult. But but it's a conversation we have to have pierce because I think... Like, if we let this psycho pass, that's 4 percent of the population. Whenever they get the upper hand and that happens from time to time, everything burns.
Piers Morgan I also think that young people in particular. They are exposed to such relentless dopamine imagery. Both steel pictures, videos, whatever. And in particular the last 3 weeks, if you're a young person with an impression mind. And you're getting bombarded with some of the worst imagery imaginable, babies, dead, limitless and so on.
Piers Morgan If you're getting that on your feed all day long, which I'm seeing on mine, so they must be. It can only have an incredibly damaging effect, to to I think a young generation already ripped with anxiety. Ripped with problems about how to deal with the real world. And I think a lot of it is, they're just seeing so much bad stuff all the time on social media, which when I was young, you just couldn't see it. You would not be able to access this kind of thing, you were protected in a way well.
Piers Morgan The reality of things like warfare and protected for this kind of imagery.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Yeah. Well, again, it's it's a problem of technological revolution because this new sensory system that we've produced, this new system of perception. It's a fire hose first of all, that's impossible to govern. You can never get on top of it. It's it's infinite in its scope.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Yeah. And then it allows the pathological and the terrible to spread is rapidly as the beneficial and the good. And so it is overwhelming, it's not just kids that have a hard time with that. I mean, it's just these technologies, Well, what do we expect? They're insanely powerful and remarkable.
Dr. Jordan Peterson But they carry with it, the well they carry with it. All of the implications of that insane power on the pathological side. And we don't exactly know how to deal with it We don't know how to reg... We haven't evolved the social norms even that regulate online conduct. You know, I mean when I block people on Twitter, let's say, I have Qualms about it, you know, Well I'm in favor of free speech, Do I block?
Dr. Jordan Peterson Trolls online and when exactly do I block them. You know, I've got more direct about that. I have a couple of rules. You know, if you're anonymous, if you're anonymous and you're annoying, it's like Yeah. You're done as far as I'm concerned, but but that's just the beginnings of the evolution of anything appropriate.
Dr. Jordan Peterson To tomato
Piers Morgan saying. I mean, I've wrestle with because I blocked I think 11000 people or whatever it is I can't remember what the latest tally is. I go a little blocks. Spur you sometimes. But to me, there's no contradiction between believing passionately and free speech.
Piers Morgan But also allowing yourself not to have to to listen to it. You don't have to listen to what people are saying to. Well, you have you have the right in a in a freeze Democratic society to say, look, you're entitled to say whatever you want. But I don't actually have to listen to it. That's not you're not preventing them from exercising their right to free speech.
Piers Morgan You'll just saying I don't wanna hear it.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Now that's right. That's why we have walls. Like, that that's a good example of the difference between the virtual world and the real world. You Have a House And It Has walls and a door And The reason for that is You don't Want A random stranger To Come in and just yell things at You win ever. Right.
Dr. Jordan Peterson You know And so what are the walls in the doors on social media? Well, we have no idea because we thought well would democrat the public square? Okay. So what does that mean? It means that any narcissistic psycho path anywhere can say whatever they want to you and everyone you know.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well, you know, that's just not gonna work. It's not gonna work. There's always been criminals and quasi criminals and trouble makers and We have some mechanisms of regulation in the actual world and virtually no mechanisms, regulation, whatsoever on the the virtual world. And so yeah, it's it's a tremendous problem. And it is also making it more and more difficult for us to distinguish what's real from what's not real because you don't know when you're being played for a what would you call mas fool by a sadistic psycho path.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And the answer to that is often, often. Yeah. You know, frightening often. And so my sense and like, I I proposed this before is like, I don't... I think social media enterprises above a certain size should separate people with verified identities, verified by their site, not with some universal digital Ids, separate them from the anonymous type Like if the anonymous types wanna post, no problem, but they shouldn't get to post with the actual human beings.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Because there's no responsibility. You know? And then you say, well, you know, maybe I'm a whistleblower of and I'm I'm standing for truth and I don't want. To bear an undue responsibility for telling truth to power. Like my sense online is for every 1 whistleblower who's genuine, who's anonymous.
Dr. Jordan Peterson There's 9 99 anonymous patrol demons who are sadistic. Right? Yeah. That's not a good ratio
Piers Morgan You interviewed Bb Netanyahu quite recently actually a few months ago. A lot of pressure on him internally a lot of criticism. Hamas released a video on Monday of some of the hostages attacking a netanyahu Administration for not having a cease ceasefire on. That was clear propaganda. But it also reflects a lot of people in Israel feel about Netanyahu and the catastrophic failure of security and defense on October the seventh.
Piers Morgan People he's resolute refused to accept any responsibility or to apologize for that. Do you think you should?
Dr. Jordan Peterson Well, I I Guess I Wouldn't Presume To Know. I mean, My observation about That Was that you know, People said, well, how could This happen, How Could The Really Defense Systems be That por. And I Would say our Defense Systems are way more poor than anybody would ever want to Think happen You know, it's very very difficult to stop people who are willing to light themselves on fire to send you. And any random person in a civilized society can cause an unbelievable amount of Mayhem in trouble. And in order to forest that possibility completely, which would be impossible in any case, we'd have to move towards the surveillance state like China where we're being monitored 100 percent of the time.
Dr. Jordan Peterson And then the bloody Care would be worse than the disease. It doesn't surprise me that Israel's defense Was That Por. I Don't Think It I Don't Think It Cannot Be In a Society That Still Vaguely Free. And Even If You Lock People Down Jesus. You can still cause a lot of trouble if you're hell bent on doing it.
Dr. Jordan Peterson So does Net should netanyahu apologize for the failures of the Israeli defense system in relationship to the Hamas attack. I don't know enough to say. It isn't obvious to me that it failed any worse than you should expect a system like that to fail when it's faced by psychopathic terrorists who are being funded by outside sources who want to do nothing else, but cause misery in Mayhem. So I interviewed Netanyahu partly because I wanted to talk to because I was curious And I was also an admire of His economic reforms. The economic reforms that I think did raise Israel to this position of pronounced economic power and entrepreneurial capacity that they now possess, which also made them a more attractive partner during Neighborhood courts because the Israelis had the possibility of offering to the Arabs, the sharing of their technology and their entrepreneurial and managerial prowess.
Dr. Jordan Peterson They had something to offer along with their, you know, military strength. So I thought that was all to the good. I don't know enough about Netanyahu and about The intricacies of Israel politics. God. It's hard enough to keep track of my own country, You know, to to dare to To say anything more than that.
Dr. Jordan Peterson I'm glad I'm not in his shoes. How about that? That's, you know, I can't imagine there's anything about that that's That's anything other than Ab bi difficult non nonstop.
Piers Morgan Total to Jordan Peterson. What a fascinating. Thank you very much, indeed, for joining.
Dr. Jordan Peterson Hey, thank you. It's always pleasure to talk to pierce.